Substrate for Chams!

[Dyesub Dave]

OK ... so before I even start I know that the rule is NO SUBSTRATE for chameleons. However lately I've been questioning this and was wondering exactly why that is. Some reasons for certain types of substrate are obvious but others are a bit unclear. So please bear with me and read my idea and give me any opinions that you have.

I have kept pygmy chams and currently have several types of geckos. In these enclosures I use a layer of Hydroton (Clay balls that soak up moisture), a layer of charcoal for smells and bacteria and then a layer of reptile bedding that includes springtail eggs. This layered substrate not only holds moisture in the Hydroton and soil but reduces smell and bacteria with the charcoal. And when the springtails hatch they help reduce the any feces or rotting material.

So I was wondering why this couldn't be used for chameleons - Veileds specifically? I have heard about the risk of impaction however occasionally my veileds will get a small bit of soil or dead leaf from the plants in their mouths when catching a cricket and I've seen my geckos which are half the size of an adult veiled actually eating the soil. Also in nature there is earth, leaves, twigs etc. on the ground.

The reason that I'm asking is because I bought a used misting system that I would like to set up. It would go on top of two 175 gal. flexariums with softtray bottoms. The way they are currently setup with NO substrate I would need to build stands for them with a hole in the bottom of the enclosure to allow for drainage. I was thinking that with the terrarium substrate setup I wouldn't have to worry about drainage as the soil and hydroton would soak up any excess water and also keep the humidity up in the enclosures. And with the sprintails cleaning up any feces the maintenace would be easier as well. I could also put the plants right in the substrate instead of in pots.

So like I said earlier I know that this is generally frowned upon but am not exactly sure why. Please let me know of any thoughts or suggestions that you have.

Thanks ... Dyesub Dave.

 

[kenya]

I think that the most obvious reason for arboreal chams not having substrate in their cages is that in the wild they live in tree canopies rather than a 48" (or 6 foot) high enclosure. The soil that would be accessible to them in the wild would be very very far below them and I doubt they would be near it often. The wild soil would also have things growing in it such as grass, ferns, moss, and other low ground cover type plants. The likelihood of there being real exposed dirt that isn't packed down and will stick to a chams tongue in big blobs like the soil we would use for an enclosure is rare. The wild soil would not be as moist as the soil being used as a substrate and would therefore not be as cohesive to itself- it would be fine and dusty and easy to pass if ingested. You could also easily kill your plants with all of the excess moisture that your mist system will be creating- you would have to have a very large and substantial layer of hydroballs, charcoal and dirt to properly drain it.

This is all speculation. I see your idea and it seems neat but I see the bad possibilities too. It seems far easier and wiser just to make a hole in the bottom of your enclosure, get the material to bend down to create proper flow into the hole, and drain into a bucket below it. You can still have some nice potted plants inside the enclosure with river rocks over the dirt.

Oh, one last thing I forgot- I believe that lizards in the wild do eat dirt on occasion whether on purpose or accidental and it serves to give them vitamins and minerals that they would have no other way of getting. With our supplementation of captive reptiles today, I find giving them access to raw dirt unnecessary and kind of dangerous. It may be either instinct or deficiency driving them to do it. If it is only instinct then your pet may harm itself unintentionally by too much of a good thing that is constantly accessible. Sort of like how free feeding dogs and cats is a bad idea.

 

[Dyesub Dave]

Hey Kenya,

Thanks for your response and you have some very valid points. But female chams still need to come down to lay eggs and such and if they were hungry I'm not sure that they'd wait until back up in the trees to feed. But that's a good point about the damp soil being more adhesive! Perhaps when using a soil bottom incorporating small runner plants such as ferns,moss, etc. would be a good idea and would also help to use up the moisture.

It may seem easier to cut a hole in the bottom of the enclosure but I would need to purchase materials and build specialized stands for the enclosures to allow for the sloped bottom and allow for drainage. Unfortuately I don't have the time or $$$ for that right now. I could easily afford to get some hydroton, charcoal and reptile mix and it would likely only take an hour or so to set up. I figured that with the drain system there would still be a fair amount of maintenance as the cage bottom would have to be cleaned on a regular basis and the soil option may alleviate some of this work.

I expected to get a lot of DON'T DO IT responses here but really just wanted to know the reasons. I would love to study chams in the wild as it would certainly give a better idea of their lifestyle and everyday needs. I may still try this idea with one enclosure and just keep a close eye on the results.

BTW - That's kind of my point. If lizards occasionally eat dirt in the wild then why would there be a problem in the enclosure unless there was large debis or possible contaminants in the soil. Of course nobody really knows if lizards often perish from ingesting soil or other materials in the wild and that's the part I think is speculation. I'm sure that many reptiles have an instict as to THAT WON'T FIT IN MY MOUTH and spit it out. Otherwise how would they have survived all this time. I've seen baby chams do that with crickets that were too large for them.

Anyways .... thanks again for your response and keep them coming. The more feedback that I get the better informed I will be before trying something new.

Dyesub Dave.

 

[kenya]

Hey Kenya,

Thanks for your response and you have some very valid points. But female chams still need to come down to lay eggs and such and if they were hungry I'm not sure that they'd wait until back up in the trees to feed. But that's a good point about the damp soil being more adhesive! Perhaps when using a soil bottom incorporating small runner plants such as ferns,moss, etc. would be a good idea and would also help to use up the moisture.

It may seem easier to cut a hole in the bottom of the enclosure but I would need to purchase materials and build specialized stands for the enclosures to allow for the sloped bottom and allow for drainage. Unfortuately I don't have the time or $$$ for that right now. I could easily afford to get some hydroton, charcoal and reptile mix and it would likely only take an hour or so to set up. I figured that with the drain system there would still be a fair amount of maintenance as the cage bottom would have to be cleaned on a regular basis and the soil option may alleviate some of this work.

I expected to get a lot of DON'T DO IT responses here but really just wanted to know the reasons. I would love to study chams in the wild as it would certainly give a better idea of their lifestyle and everyday needs. I may still try this idea with one enclosure and just keep a close eye on the results.

BTW - That's kind of my point. If lizards occasionally eat dirt in the wild then why would there be a problem in the enclosure unless there was large debis or possible contaminants in the soil. Of course nobody really knows if lizards often perish from ingesting soil or other materials in the wild and that's the part I think is speculation. I'm sure that many reptiles have an instict as to THAT WON'T FIT IN MY MOUTH and spit it out. Otherwise how would they have survived all this time. I've seen baby chams do that with crickets that were too large for them.

Anyways .... thanks again for your response and keep them coming. The more feedback that I get the better informed I will be before trying something new.

Dyesub Dave.

I totally see your points, I just don't think that it is too good of an idea to give them access to soil at all times.

As far as females go, in the wild they are still way up in the trees and only come down to the ground to lay their clutch (I believe) but in captivity, people generally keep their eyes on them, control breeding and will put the laying chamber in when the time is right. My point was that in the wild, they always have access to dirt BUT it is usually 20 feet or more below them and rarely encountered. In captivity, it would be inches away instead. I'm sure the wild females will eat a bit near the ground after laying but I doubt that they dwell on the ground much longer than it takes for them to lay and then ascend back into the canopy. There are also a lot of recently fallen leaves on the forest floor and I would think that wild females are better hunters than captive (they have to be). The likelihood of them getting a huge glob of dirt with a bug or on accident just seems unlikely to me.

Putting lots of plants on the bottom seems like a good idea if you are going to go through with this- just be cautious. Would you really want to risk your chams life for it?

If your cham is a female, she might at some point dig into your dirt bottom and lay eggs. How will you get them out to incubate or dispose of? It seems like it would be a big hassle, both to you and her.

As always, if you do it, let us know the results...and photos!

 

[hawaiianice99]

i think that if you put in substrate and then added your misting system you would make an awful mess. all that dirt getting misted a few times a day at 5 min sessions, sounds like a recipe for a mud pie.

 

[Dyesub Dave]

Hey Kenya,

Yeah .... I was just thinking about that same scenario with the females. You wouldn't want them digging through the charcoal and hydroton for sure.

As for risking my chams life he has access to the dirt in the tops of potted plants now and there are leaves and twigs on the bottom of the enclosure that he doesn't seem to ingest. He actually has one favorite pot that doesn't have a plant in it anymore where he poops on a reguluar basis. I need to potty train all my chams! LOLOL


Hi hawaiianice99,

I was just talking with a buddy who breeds many types of chams and has a large misting setup. He was saying that the small amount of moisture that make it to the bottom dries up fairly quickly and he mists for about a minute 3-5 times a day. So I wouldn't imagine that the bottom of the enclosure would be a mud puddle or anything.




So basically since most of my chams already have access to dirt, leaves and twigs and have survived for well over a year seems to show that impaction from natural sources that are bio-degradable is fairly unlikely. Our chams could also fall on a sharp stem from a plant and be injured. And I'm sure that chams in the wild would often get pieces of leaf,bark or twig in their mouths that they would have to deal with.

I don't currently have all the supplies to do this anyways but haven't yet found any conclusive evidence that this would not work. However I certainly wouldn't want to have to move an enclosure with this type of suggested substrate in it. If I decide to try it I will certainly post any results observed. After all ... they sell coconut fibre that is apparently safe to injest for all reptiles. My micro geckos which are 3" long fully grown live in sand ... mind you I'm sure that they're physiology is such that they can handle injesting some of it.

Anyways .... thanks for your responses and I will post again when I have either decided to try this idea or not.

BTW - I think the plants on the forest floor is a great idea and I will likely add them if I try to use a substrate.

Thanks .. Dyesub Dave.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

everything make sense, points and counter points


have the sub, have potted plants taking up some sub surface area

custom cut a rubber coated heavy gauge wire mesh around the plants creating a barrier from the chameleon and substrate, but it will allow water and feces to pass through to the bottom

 

[kenya]

everything make sense, points and counter points


have the sub, have potted plants taking up some sub surface area

custom cut a rubber coated heavy gauge wire mesh around the plants creating a barrier from the chameleon and substrate, but it will allow water and feces to pass through to the bottom

Pretty good idea.

 

[dodolah]

please do consider the limitation of restrained environment of captivity before introducing the factor of "chameleon in the wild."
Pygmy is ground dweller. Its lifestyles have adapted successfully to coexist with problematic elements of having substrate in captivity.

Veiled on the other hand is different and has adapted to arboreal lifestyle where the air is fresh.

All the reasons of why no substrate have been mentioned by other posts.
Let me add 2 other elements:

Bacteria accumulation from constantly wet substrate,
Substrate (particularly soil) is a great culture to raise parasites such as Coccidia,

Off course, in the wild, chameleons certainly have access to soil.
Perhaps, that is also another reasons among other things why WC are usually parasites infested.

You do realize that wild chameleons do not survive as long as chameleons in captivity (provided that the owner gave them the proper care).

Hope that helps

 

[ciafardo 4]

bravo! very well said dodolah

 

[Luvmychammie]

Substrate for chams

I have a baby veiled cham, she's about 6 months old. I just recently started using a product called reptibark. It's chunky like landscaping bark, but is reptile safe, it smells good and is easy to spot clean between heavy duty cleanings. My female does come down near the floor of her reptarium to chase down crickets and drink from her fountain. I did use eco earth before using reptibark, and I or should I say she never had a problem. Because it's a female and will lay eggs soon, I also provide on the floor of her enclosure, a dish of reptile safe sand...Hope this is helpful

 

[hawaiianice99]

I have a baby veiled cham, she's about 6 months old. I just recently started using a product called reptibark. It's chunky like landscaping bark, but is reptile safe, it smells good and is easy to spot clean between heavy duty cleanings. My female does come down near the floor of her reptarium to chase down crickets and drink from her fountain. I did use eco earth before using reptibark, and I or should I say she never had a problem. Because it's a female and will lay eggs soon, I also provide on the floor of her enclosure, a dish of reptile safe sand...Hope this is helpful

sorry, but you use reptibark and a fountain... you should start your own thread just so it diverts people off this one and on yours and then see what happens.

Get rid of the bark, thats the worst substrate for impaction.
Get rid of the fountain, thats a bacterial problem just waiting to happen.

 

[Dyesub Dave]

everything make sense, points and counter points


have the sub, have potted plants taking up some sub surface area

custom cut a rubber coated heavy gauge wire mesh around the plants creating a barrier from the chameleon and substrate, but it will allow water and feces to pass through to the bottom

I like your idea ... very interesting!!



Hey Dodolah,

All very good points! And yes most animals in captivitiy live longer than their wild counterparts for a number of reasons ... disease and parasites definitely being one of them. Along with of course food availability, predators, weather conditions and I'm sure several others.

But it seems that everybody thinks that the soil will be sopping wet. These all screen enclosures dry out very quickly and with plants and hydroton to help with the small amount that will make it to the bottom of the enclosure I really don't see how this will be a problem. In fact in my gecko tank and gecko exo-terra enclosure that don't have nearly the airflow of the flexariums I'm using are around 40-50% humidity by the time I get home from work. And that's with a heavy spray in the evening and a light spray in the morning. I've talked to a few people that say the super fine mist from these misting systems doesn't really saturate their enlcosures and dries up very quickly. And lets not forget that the intervals between spraying and the duration of the spray can all be adjusted until the desired results are reached. And I've also heard of a chameleon breeder that uses a similar layout in their enclosures.

From what I understand the charcoal used in the middle layer helps to reduce or eliminate bacteria and odor. And all of my other reptiles seem to be fine with this setup ... however like you said they may be more resiliant due to the way they've evolved. Although many geckos don't usually settle on the ground and are also up in the trees and bushes and this is the setup recommended for many species. It is also my understanding that harboring springtails in the substrate will greatly reduce if not eliminate feces and rotting materials.

I'm just wondering if anybody has actually TRIED this before and has first hand experience that it wouldn't be a good idea? I've heard of at least one person that has done something very similar and it works for them!! I'm not trying to be argumentative but rather really trying to grasp what others are saying here as it doesn't seem to make sense with everything that I'm proposing.


Hi Luvmychammie,

I'll have to agree about the reptibark. While it may not fit in your little chams mouth now it won't be long before it can. And while I personally think an adult cham wouldn't have a problem with a leaf or soil that is digestible a hunk of wood or gravel/stone could easily cause problems.

I also think the waterfall may not be the best idea. I think that if done properly a waterfall may be a benefit to many reptile enclosures but it needs to be filtered well and in my opinion caged in so that feces and feeder insects cannot get to it but some spray and the humidity can get to the chams. I believe that a well designed waterfall in a chameleon ROOM would be an excellent idea. But I'm sure that's another entire thread !!

Thanks for your input everyone!!

Dyesub Dave.

 

[addicted]

I'd definitely like to hear about it if you try it, I like the idea too, it would be nice to have plants planted right into the substrate. You'd think they'd be healthier this way...you'd just have to trim them more often

 

[opihiman]

I have a baby veiled cham, she's about 6 months old. I just recently started using a product called reptibark. It's chunky like landscaping bark, but is reptile safe, it smells good and is easy to spot clean between heavy duty cleanings. My female does come down near the floor of her reptarium to chase down crickets and drink from her fountain. I did use eco earth before using reptibark, and I or should I say she never had a problem. Because it's a female and will lay eggs soon, I also provide on the floor of her enclosure, a dish of reptile safe sand...Hope this is helpful

I am glad you posted here and that someone was able give your good feedback...

I had a waterfall in my viv and finally took it out due to it harboring live crickets and other food sources left behind. It was not work the trouble of trying to keep it clean.

Hope it helps...

And this has been a very interesting thread

OPI

 

[Vibrant Chameleons]

Hey Dave, if you decide on using a soil substrate, I'd still advise a drainage plan as constantly wet soil will cause the roots of the plants or trees to rot. I myself, see no problem using organic soil as a substrate as long as its well maintained. Also, panther chams are known to stay lower to the ground in smaller trees and brush.

 

[Jordan]

For a female the substrate would have to be very deep. Say 10-18" to be safe. Still for drainage you would have to layer so that air could get in there and avoid constantly wet soil. Say a layer of soil, then some rocks, then something to strain the sediment (panty hose would be perfect) and a drain outwards. You would have to mess around with misting durations and frequencies as the panty hose would hamper the draining ability in terms of speed. I say panty hose because they are not organic and will not decompose over time like say something made out of cotton. Again with a female she may not appreciate the wet soil. You might still have to have an egg laying container.

With my experimentation I would recommend that you keep the plants in individualized pots. If there are problems with them they can still be removed without tearing the cage apart.

 

[Dyesub Dave]

Hey Vibrant,

Well I was thinking that the plants may have to stay in pots anyways. Some of the large ficus or hibiscus need a fair amount of depth to the soil. The only way that I would be able to get this depth is to put plexi sides around the bottom of the flexarium and I would need much more soil / reptile mix this way. Any excess fluid would seep down to the hydroton and be soaked up by that so I don't think that there would be a problem with the roots rotting ... I guess it depends on the type of plant and it's moisture requirements.


Hi Jordan,

Yeah I was wondering what to do in the case of a female. I was worried about her digging down to the charcoal and hydroton but then remembered that it is suggested to put a layer of screening in between each layer of substrate which I have done in other small enclosures for other reptiles. This would stop her from digging to the next layer. So in that case I would still need a laying container in her enclosure. However at this moment I'm only thinking of using the substrate in my large enclosures with the males and I'm only going to start with one enclosure to see how it works.

As for the plants like I said above they may have to be kept in idividual pots anyways. Mind you in my other terrarium setups I have small plants growing from the substrate and most of them are doing quite well. The one setup is a smaller screened enclosure for my crested geckos and the plants have been growing fine for months. But I was also thinking that the larger plants need more moisture anyways and would use a lot from the soil but I'm not sure that I'm ready to make the soil 8"-10" deep.


I won't be trying this for a while as I still need to purchase bulk amounts of all the ingredients but I will certainly post my resuts on the forum. Thanks again for all your suggestions and input.

Dyesub Dave.

 

[lbesok]

Dave,

I got an idea for you when I was at the pro-mist booth at the Daytona show. For his display model (that was spraying all day), he had a small hole in the back left corner, that was connected to a tube that went back into the bucket to keep recycling the water throughout the day. Just an idea, but maybe you could consider something similar at the bottom, an hose like apparatus that would drain the excess water into a bucket. This seems rather simple and inexpensive. Like I said just a though. Good luck, I'm very curious to see how this idea works out for you.

 

[Dyesub Dave]

Hi lbesok,

That would be a great idea but I may need to place the enclosure on a slight angle for that to work. But I really wouldn't anticipate there being that much moisture in the bottom. I'm sure that with regulating the spray times / duration and keeping an eye on moisture levels in the substrate I should be able to avoid any drainage issues in the enclosure. However it's good to have a backup plan in case it doesn't work!!

On a side note I just noticed something HUGE flying around in my cham's enclosure. Since this has happened before I know exactly what it is ... but the first time it happened it freaked me out a bit. It's a hornworm moth from one he didn't eat and must have cocooned in the soil of one of the plants. Since he's my older picky male it will make a great meal for him!!


Dyesub Dave.