Substrate In Chameleon Tank

[action14]

Hi, first off just want to say how impressive the wealth of knowledge and information is on this forum. Second, I was just wondering... I have a female veiled chameleon, in a glass enclosure ( yes a glass enclose), and I was wondering why is it a bad idea to have a substrate to plant plants in. If you make the substrate a bioactive substrate than the bacteria and fungus problems would essentially be eliminated.

Any suggestions.

 

[pssh]

Because it can accidentally (or in the case of veileds, purposely) be ingested. When it is eaten it is possible that it will block the intestines and can eventually lead to her death. If she did not die and a vet was able to help, you will be paying many many vet bills.

 

[Julirs]

Hi, first off just want to say how impressive the wealth of knowledge and information is on this forum. Second, I was just wondering... I have a female veiled chameleon, in a glass enclosure ( yes a glass enclose), and I was wondering why is it a bad idea to have a substrate to plant plants in. If you make the substrate a bioactive substrate than the bacteria and fungus problems would essentially be eliminated.

Any suggestions.

Where about in the world do you live? Your presentation of "glass enclosure" makes it sound like you know that is not correct but you are doing it anyways. If it is an aquarium it is wrong no matter where you live.

 

[action14]

I live in Canada, Its not an aquarium it a custom built terrarium with screen top and sliding front doors. The reference to the glass enclosure was put in because of all the statements that chameleons should be kept in screened cages.
I understand that she can ingest some of the substrate, but she eats out of a dixie cup, and the only time she has actually been on the floor was to lay eggs, other than that I have never seen her down beyond the top half of the tank.

 

[lbesok]

Just because you don't see her doesn't mean she won't ever go to the bottom of the cage. Besides being a danger of impaction, soil/substrate can be heavily ridden with parasites, so one bite of soil could lead to a life long battle with coccidia. We offer this experienced advice to you in advance to prevent any possible detrimental effects to your chameleon. It is ultimately up to you what you do with the expert guidance that you are given.

 

[SS4Luck]

If yo dont like the way the bottom looks or want to add something i covered the floors of my cages and potted plants with the smooth black river rocks. Looks nice and subtle, looks really cool when wet, and there is 0 risk of ingestion. Just an idea

 

[Carlton]

I live in Canada, Its not an aquarium it a custom built terrarium with screen top and sliding front doors. The reference to the glass enclosure was put in because of all the statements that chameleons should be kept in screened cages.
I understand that she can ingest some of the substrate, but she eats out of a dixie cup, and the only time she has actually been on the floor was to lay eggs, other than that I have never seen her down beyond the top half of the tank.

Chams can and do scout around a cage and they can be attracted by bits of shiny sand or mica in substrates. Also the perlite beads in most potting soils. There's always a chance she will shoot at a crix, flip it out of the cup, and then follow it down to the substrate and try again.

I have used recycled paper pulp (so called Cage Fresh) for a substrate in a very very dry climate to help raise humidity. A bit of paper pulp that gets ingested will dissolve into powder. But, to avoid problems I wet the pulp, pressed it down into the cage bottom so the surface was compacted, and put some window screen on the top. It actually worked very well. Spot cleaned it when needed. The river cobble is a great idea too!

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I would plant it using organic soil but first I would do a layer of hydroton then fiberglass screen then charcoal then screen.
I think this is a perfect situation for a female if the soil is kept damp for the plants, she will always have a place to dig and lay eggs when she needs to.
Assuming the ventilation is good and you closely monitor temps so that she doesn't get too hot ... I see no problem with this arrangement.

-Brad

 

[action14]

I can see a lot of people against substrate, and yet some seem to think its acceptable. Like I said before there is obviously an immense wealth of knowledge and experience on this site however the only reason given not to use a substrate is compaction. I understand that it is a serious problem (compaction), but some expert chameleon keepers use a substrate. AAnd from what I read it seems like it is a lot more work not to use a substrate. Some of you have posted spot cleaning and disinfecting cages on a weekly basis, one post even mentioned using steam to disinfect (which is a great idea), but its still a lot of work. Remove the chance of compaction and substrate makes more sense. Its more natural, if done properly can promote the growth of beneficial bacteria, reducing and limiting the growth of harmful bacteria and fungi, and it provides a spot for egg laying and can help control humidity and temperature. I totally understand that the chameleon can knock out a cricket from the container, but I watch her eat and don't leave the room until she is done. If a cricket escapes I catch it and place it back in the cup. There would be a greater chance of her getting infected from a cricket bite for those who throw crickets into a cage and watch them hunt, then her have any complications from compaction.
Also there was a mention of coccidia, as serious as coccidia can be, reptiles are only intermediate hosts of the disease, and therefore can only acquire it from oocytes of definitive or primary hosts, mainly the faeces of the mammals (cats). Now being that I would never use a fertilized base potting soil and the fact that my cats don't defecate inside the chameleon tank, the chances of coccidia are extremely low. From all of the posts read, there is a greater chance of the chameleon ingesting to much toxins from the plants placed inside the tank, than ever contracting coccidia from ingesting the soil.

Thanks brad for the idea about organic soil, i like that idea. But why do add the charcoal ontop of the drainage layer.

 

[pssh]

Actually they can get parasites from feeders. Even store bought ones. You still have to clean the cage and a substrate makes it harder. (especially if there are any parasite eggs in your cage.) I don't recommend the use of substrates, especially with a veiled as they will often go and eat it on their own. Some people think soil with no large chunks or fertilizers are fine, but a past chameleon of mine became impacted from such soil and it wasn't even a substrate, just in the plant pots.

Ultimately it's your choice.

 

[tglassburner]

Because it can accidentally (or in the case of veileds, purposely) be ingested.

Veileds eat dirt?

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Some Really seem to love a dirt snack. Personally I wouldn't risk losing an animal to impaction. I never used to cover the soil in my planters but I do now after hearing others horror stories.

 

[pssh]

Panthers will eat dirt too sometimes.

 

[Chris Anderson]

If you have an issue with your animal actively eating dirt and substrate (something usually caused by the absence of a vitamin or mineral in the diet), then you should obviously not house them in an enclosure with substrate as excessive ingestion of substrate will increase the chances of impaction issues. Most chameleons do not actively eat dirt and the small amounts they may ingest during feeding should pass without a problem.

I personally feel that fully planted enclosures with an organic soil substrate and drainage layer is a very useful addition to chameleon enclosures. It helps buffer the humidity, prevent standing water in the bottom of the enclosure, makes your plants healthier (and thus the rest of the enclosure better for the cham), etc.

Regarding the concern of parasites, healthy chameleons (and other host organisms) generally live with internal parasites without a problem as they are at a balance. While recently imported or otherwise compromised animals fighting acclimation, stress and illness may need to be deparasitized, healthy animals typically do not, although annual deparasitizing treatment is helpful as a safety measure. Our captive chameleons are exposed to sources of parasites from their commercially produced feeders, wild collected feeders, etc., so the risk of parasite exposure from a naturally planted terrarium is not a novel risk and in my opinion, its risks are outweighed by its benefits.

Chris

 

[hart8000]

Would it be a bad plan to put a layer of sand on top of the dirt in your potted plants? The same sand you would use for a lay bin. Instead of using screen.

 

[sarroca808]

i live in a forest in hawaii and i just throw dead leaves on the bottoms my jackson sometimes fines a hitch hiking bug or two lol

 

[Leilaskeeper]

I did what brad suggested with the exception of hydroton, I substituted rocks on the bottom. I use organic soil as I have my schefflera in my glass exoterra enclosure and then I have a bin for my female to lay eggs with a 3/1 ratio of soil/vermiculite. For some reason, my girl likes to dig in one specific area only and avoids her bin .. no idea why though. She isn't showing signs of being gravid except the digging occassionally in that one spot.

 

[Leilaskeeper]

If you have an issue with your animal actively eating dirt and substrate (something usually caused by the absence of a vitamin or mineral in the diet), then you should obviously not house them in an enclosure with substrate as excessive ingestion of substrate will increase the chances of impaction issues. Most chameleons do not actively eat dirt and the small amounts they may ingest during feeding should pass without a problem.

I personally feel that fully planted enclosures with an organic soil substrate and drainage layer is a very useful addition to chameleon enclosures. It helps buffer the humidity, prevent standing water in the bottom of the enclosure, makes your plants healthier (and thus the rest of the enclosure better for the cham), etc.

Regarding the concern of parasites, healthy chameleons (and other host organisms) generally live with internal parasites without a problem as they are at a balance. While recently imported or otherwise compromised animals fighting acclimation, stress and illness may need to be deparasitized, healthy animals typically do not, although annual deparasitizing treatment is helpful as a safety measure. Our captive chameleons are exposed to sources of parasites from their commercially produced feeders, wild collected feeders, etc., so the risk of parasite exposure from a naturally planted terrarium is not a novel risk and in my opinion, its risks are outweighed by its benefits.

Chris

Thanks for the info Chris! Since I've done this, my humidity is well controlled and I agree, my plant has thrived ever since I've put it inside the enclosure.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I did what brad suggested with the exception of hydroton, I substituted rocks on the bottom. I use organic soil as I have my schefflera in my glass exoterra enclosure and then I have a bin for my female to lay eggs with a 3/1 ratio of soil/vermiculite. For some reason, my girl likes to dig in one specific area only and avoids her bin .. no idea why though. She isn't showing signs of being gravid except the digging occassionally in that one spot.

Vermiculite is not a great medium for a laying bin.
If she is preferring to dig elsewhere anyway, I would remove the dedicated bin and just fill in with organic soil and maybe another plant.
What species?
What are the temps?
Sometimes they will dig into substrate to cool off if it is too hot.

-Brad

 

[Leilaskeeper]

Vermiculite is not a great medium for a laying bin.
If she is preferring to dig elsewhere anyway, I would remove the dedicated bin and just fill in with organic soil and maybe another plant.
What species?
What are the temps?
Sometimes they will dig into substrate to cool off if it is too hot.

-Brad

I put the laying bin in two weeks ago after seeing her dig in that one spot. I thought she might be getting ready to lay eggs. I wanted to be on the safe side. But since then, she still goes to the same spot.

I have a female veiled who is 17 months. Humidity is between 50-60 majority of the time. If working late, I've seen it creep to 40. Basking temp is around 85 -90. Sometimes I turn off the basking light to reduce the heat. How can I control the heat better? I sit the light on top of the mesh (exoterra enclosure). Would a clamp holding the light a little higher work or should I lower the wattage (100 watt tight beam)