Substrate suggestions!

[gr8nico]

Hey All!
I have recently revamped my panther chameleon's enclosure and installed background waterfall with eco terra drainage system. At the moment I am using "fake grass" which I am happy with as the water goes through well, it's not absorbent and its fairly easy to clean. At the moment however it is not big enough so I have to change it. I am unsure about any soil based substrates as it used to keep my wood wet. I also at some point had fungus and little mites(?) thriving underneath! Any ideas guys on what I could use to keep it as hygienic as possible? I have attached some pics so you can see how it looks currently. Also if there is anything you would change about my terrarium I'm open for suggestions

 

[carol5208]

Unfortunately nothing is best. It does not look as pretty, but it is really the most sanitary way to go. Your enclosure is beautiful by the way, but over time that grass will probably breed bacteria, just like all the other substrates.

 

[distortionz]

I'd do a soil mixture and plant the bottom and cover with leaf litter.. stock it with isopods and springtails.. that looks great by the way

 

[Djturna4thakidz]

It looks really good but IMHO not the best enclosure for a panther. Due to the size of panthers, they usually need a larger adult cage. Also with no real plants keeping humidity up will be a tough. I love these exo-terras for my smaller species and montanes but for a panther, go screen.

 

[carol5208]

I'd do a soil mixture and plant the bottom and cover with leaf litter.. stock it with isopods and springtails.. that looks great by the way

haha I guess we all have our opinions!

 

[Djturna4thakidz]

I'd do a soil mixture and plant the bottom and cover with leaf litter.. stock it with isopods and springtails.. that looks great by the way

Yes this is an alternative view to mine. I used planted terratiums for my dart frogs. I setup a viv like this for a small jacksons I had, worked great but he became impacted from ingesting too much of the leaf litter and passed away. I know I get a lot of pushback on this, people saying substrate is fine. Maybe in your experience it works great but in mine, it does not. Just my past experiences.

 

[JonRich]

As Carol stated, none is best. You'll find it can get pretty messy and fecal batter can build up and worse if it gets wet. Its best to just use a sheet or 2 of paper towel and swap it out every other day or so. Considering a roll of Bounty is about $5 and will last about 2 months isn't too bad.

 

[JonRich]

I'd do a soil mixture and plant the bottom and cover with leaf litter.. stock it with isopods and springtails.. that looks great by the way

Haha, crickets and roaches never to be seen or eaten again.

 

[Adman]

I roll with no substrate as well, it's safer, more hygienic and also a lot easier when it comes to cleaning. I think your viv looks great, especially with the skulls on the bottom, but panthers need a lot of ventilation so keeping one in a glass viv is a bit of a risk. I kept my veiled in a smaller Exo Terra when he after I got him as he was only a little over a month old, but the mesh lid rusted like hell unfortunately, but also I don't think Exo Terra do vivs with enough height for adult panthers or veileds.

 

[gr8nico]

It looks really good but IMHO not the best enclosure for a panther. Due to the size of panthers, they usually need a larger adult cage. Also with no real plants keeping humidity up will be a tough. I love these exo-terras for my smaller species and montanes but for a panther, go screen.

The reason why I chose ExoTerra is because here in the UK often gets cold and not very humid during winter. This is the tallest terrarium out there 90cm (3ft) Suggested by my vet after smaller enclosure. There are 4 live plants there + dripper plant (umbrella tree, pathos, praying plant and one more I forgot the name of ) Drainage keeps humidity well + Repti Fogger & Monsoon rain system.

 

[gr8nico]

Unfortunately nothing is best. It does not look as pretty, but it is really the most sanitary way to go. Your enclosure is beautiful by the way, but over time that grass will probably breed bacteria, just like all the other substrates.

Thanks Carol! I've read that few times here but now I can't just leave bare drainage with mesh over it... I was even thinking ExoTerra moss sheets but they don't look like would drain water well... #confused.com

 

[youngchameleonaire]

Damn i wanted to have a soil based flooring. What about bark shaving?

 

[Adman]

Damn i wanted to have a soil based flooring. What about bark shaving?

If your chameleon ingests any by mistake it could become rather ill, as pretty as natural substrate in a viv looks it's better to err on the side of caution.

 

[gr8nico]

I would not like soil substrate personally. I would find it a bit risky and pain to clean. Maybe for dart frogs with entirely naturalistic vivarium. Would probably lean towards artificial moss sheets or fake grass again in that case... Its easily removable to clean or change. Water drains straight through it as well. "Bare bottom" is a no go

 

[gr8nico]

Damn i wanted to have a soil based flooring. What about bark shaving?

I used to have bark shaving only as my substrate and it worked really well. My exotic vet also said that IF accidentally gets eaten I should not be worried at all. Actually I am thinking now, maybe I will use it again....

 

[Chris Anderson]

There was a thread recently about why you should never use substrate, however as the thread progressed, it turned out that many of the most experienced members on the forum actually use substrate on all their enclosures and have never had a problem (including myself). Here is a link to one of those posts from that thread that includes a number of those views (I'd encourage you and everyone else to look at the rest of the thread as well): https://www.chameleonforums.com/rea...-use-substrate-136246/index4.html#post1172801

Chris

 

[Carlton]

I used to have bark shaving only as my substrate and it worked really well. My exotic vet also said that IF accidentally gets eaten I should not be worried at all. Actually I am thinking now, maybe I will use it again....

Um, this vet has suggested that ingested bark shavings would not be a problem? I beg to differ! All its takes is a larger piece to lodge somewhere in the intestines and create a partial barrier that snags exoskeletons of feeders until there's an impaction. At the very least you'd want a piece of screen over the shavings. If you absolutely insist on having a substrate there may be more digestible options to consider. In ONE of my montane setups that really seemed to need humidity help, I tried sterilized recycled paper pulp bedding. I don't know a brand name for you across the pond. The idea was that if a cham did pick up a chunk on its tongue and swallowed it, the pulp would dissolve pretty easily and pass. I moistened the bedding and packed it down on the cage floor. It was even a bit moldable. As it dried it formed a more stable surface. It absorbed water OK, and as it started off sterilized it took a long time before it started to mold or break down. Loose feeders didn't tend to dig into it. I could spot clean it and dump the discards in my garden. It didn't seem to cause problems. But as others have already stated, the more sanitary option is no substrate, or something like unbleached paper towels that are easy to switch out.

 

[gr8nico]

Thanks a lot Chris! This was the most useful answer I had here. Hope you have a good one!

 

[gr8nico]

There was a thread recently about why you should never use substrate, however as the thread progressed, it turned out that many of the most experienced members on the forum actually use substrate on all their enclosures and have never had a problem (including myself). Here is a link to one of those posts from that thread that includes a number of those views (I'd encourage you and everyone else to look at the rest of the thread as well): https://www.chameleonforums.com/rea...-use-substrate-136246/index4.html#post1172801

Chris

Thanks Chris! It summed up everything I needed to know.

 

[Carlton]

There was a thread recently about why you should never use substrate, however as the thread progressed, it turned out that many of the most experienced members on the forum actually use substrate on all their enclosures and have never had a problem (including myself). Here is a link to one of those posts from that thread that includes a number of those views (I'd encourage you and everyone else to look at the rest of the thread as well): https://www.chameleonforums.com/rea...-use-substrate-136246/index4.html#post1172801

Chris

And, the key word here is NEVER...never say never. Substrates add a bit of risk, but consider that wild chams probably pick up bits of non-edible stuff on their tongues too, and if they are lucky nothing bad happens. If they are not lucky, they end up with an injured intestine and don't survive. The point is, we are trying to reduce possible hazards, but like anything we learn, it can be overblown. I have only used substrate in large tall setups (the chams really don't end up low to the ground or on the cage floor anyway), for montane species kept in dry climates where humidity is harder to maintain. And, as I don't free range my feeders there is even less reason for a cham to end up swallowing substrate. I've had a couple of chams who seemed to try eating all sorts of non-food items in their cages. I would not use substrate in that situation.