Suddenly weak!

[Juliette]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Male Panther, 5 years old, in my care for 5 years.
• Handling - Handled rarely, taken outside maybe once a month.
• Feeding - daily probably around 10-20 crickets early in the morning and removed if not eaten by night, gut loaded with carrots and other various veggies I have around. (He hasn’t been eating well lately)
• Supplements - zoomed repticalcium d3, once every few months and regular calcium rep-cal often but not every feeding.
• Watering - dripping rain system, I seen him drink frequently.
• Fecal Description - Brown and whites as usual, a little watery in consistency. Never tested for parasites.
• History - A strange bump appeared about two months ago and was given a topical ointment by the vet immediately, it’s decreasing in size and almost gone but his last few sheds have been really rough, and in the area of that bump especially.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - screen cage, 4ft tall- 2ft - 2ft width
• Lighting - all lighting products (fixture and bulbs from petsmart. Regular heat bulb and a uvb bulb I try to change at around 6 months.
• Temperature - 77 with lights off, in the day usually in the low 80s consistently. Measure with a little sticky thermometer.
• Humidity - I don’t have the thing that measured his humidity because it got very nasty and I haven’t replaced it, generally his humidity was always very high and I live in FL so it’s high in general.
• Plants - Pothos, corn plant, and occasional trips to my hibiscus outside.
• Placement - Cage located in my living room, by a window but no air vents or constant traffic in that room.
• Location - Central FL

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

My sweet Panther chameleon turned 5 this year, everything has been fine but suddenly it seems he is so weak. I took him outside and noticed he almost couldn’t even hold up his own weight, he flipped upside down and just hung there and I grabbed him and immediately brought him inside, then today I noticed him sitting on a limb with no grip, just laying on it very dark and very cold so I rushed him into the sink for a warm bath and he brightened up. This has only been like the last two weeks but I’m devastated, of course I need to get him to the vet ASAP but I’m not off again until Tuesday and I’m mortified he may pass by then. I’m not sure what to do, or even what’s happening! I feel horrible and guilty, at this point I don’t even know if there’s anything I can do. I included a photo of him on my hand.

 

[Juliette]

I keep refreshing this because I’m horribly anxious

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi. Putting my responses in red.
Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Male Panther, 5 years old, in my care for 5 years.
• Handling - Handled rarely, taken outside maybe once a month.
• Feeding - daily probably around 10-20 crickets early in the morning and removed if not eaten by night, gut loaded with carrots and other various veggies I have around. (He hasn’t been eating well lately) Giving him a variety of feeders may boost his appetite. Attaching feeder and gutload graphics for you. He should be getting fed every other day about 6-10 med sized feeders.
• Supplements - zoomed repticalcium d3, once every few months and regular calcium rep-cal often but not every feeding. So I looked back at your post from 2017 and you were doing the correct supplement regimen...”I dust them twice a month with d3 and twice a month with a multivitamin - they are dusted with calcium every feeding.“ Why did you change it?
• Watering - dripping rain system, I seen him drink frequently.
• Fecal Description - Brown and whites as usual, a little watery in consistency. Never tested for parasites.
• History - A strange bump appeared about two months ago and was given a topical ointment by the vet immediately, it’s decreasing in size and almost gone but his last few sheds have been really rough, and in the area of that bump especially. Can you post a pic of the bump? Did the vet think it was infection?

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - screen cage, 4ft tall- 2ft - 2ft width
• Lighting - all lighting products (fixture and bulbs from petsmart. Regular heat bulb and a uvb bulb I try to change at around 6 months. Petsmart doesn’t sell T5HO to my knowledge. Is your uvb a screw in bulb?
• Temperature - 77 with lights off, in the day usually in the low 80s consistently. Measure with a little sticky thermometer.
• Humidity - I don’t have the thing that measured his humidity because it got very nasty and I haven’t replaced it, generally his humidity was always very high and I live in FL so it’s high in general. It’s important to measure humidity. Too high during the day can contribute to upper respiratory infection. I’m also in central Fl and while humidity is high outside, the central ac keeps it between 35-45%.
• Plants - Pothos, corn plant, and occasional trips to my hibiscus outside.
• Placement - Cage located in my living room, by a window but no air vents or constant traffic in that room.
• Location - Central FL

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

My sweet Panther chameleon turned 5 this year, everything has been fine but suddenly it seems he is so weak. I took him outside and noticed he almost couldn’t even hold up his own weight, he flipped upside down and just hung there and I grabbed him and immediately brought him inside, then today I noticed him sitting on a limb with no grip, just laying on it very dark and very cold so I rushed him into the sink for a warm bath and he brightened up. This has only been like the last two weeks but I’m devastated, of course I need to get him to the vet ASAP but I’m not off again until Tuesday and I’m mortified he may pass by then. I’m not sure what to do, or even what’s happening! I feel horrible and guilty, at this point I don’t even know if there’s anything I can do. I included a photo of him on my hand.
From the pic he looks a little chubby, but otherwise ok to my eyes. Do keep in mind that I’m not experienced with panthers...I keep veileds.
My concern would be possible start of some mbd. Crickets have a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio, you haven’t been giving calcium with each feeding or D3 often enough and not sure if your uvb is correct. It’s taken so long to manifest as you were doing the correct supplementation previously and do take him outside for natural sun.
Other concern would be if the bump is an infection. Chameleons pus is thick and doesn’t go away on it’s own with antibiotics the way it does for other animals. It needs to be cleaned out by a vet and then antibiotics can better clear the infection.
Perhaps @kinyonga or @Beman can be of more help.

 

[Juliette]

I had already put the cream on his bump by the time I read this, but you can roughly see the size. It wasn’t open, it seemed to be under the skin. The vet opened it to sample it but because I couldn’t be in the office I git very minimal info, just “put this cream on it” and not really what it even was.
There was a phase of time where he was hand fed and he would eat a cricket and refuse the rest, but on days I would offer him undusted feeders he would eat consistently. I talked to someone at a repticon in my area about the possibility of picky eater Chams and she talked to me about because we were passed his essential growing time and I was frequently taking him outside, it would be fine to ease up my supplement routine. I have had no issues with him eating since and I always felt confident I had done enough research of Mbd to recognize the physical signs, he’s always been so active and social even; or at least I thought his vet may recognize if there was something wrong physically. I included a photo of him I just took, I know it’s hard to see his legs but i never saw any rounding is there even anything I could do if it’s early signs of mbd? Is it treatable?

Hi. Putting my responses in red.
Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Male Panther, 5 years old, in my care for 5 years.
• Handling - Handled rarely, taken outside maybe once a month.
• Feeding - daily probably around 10-20 crickets early in the morning and removed if not eaten by night, gut loaded with carrots and other various veggies I have around. (He hasn’t been eating well lately) Giving him a variety of feeders may boost his appetite. Attaching feeder and gutload graphics for you. He should be getting fed every other day about 6-10 med sized feeders.
• Supplements - zoomed repticalcium d3, once every few months and regular calcium rep-cal often but not every feeding. So I looked back at your post from 2017 and you were doing the correct supplement regimen...”I dust them twice a month with d3 and twice a month with a multivitamin - they are dusted with calcium every feeding.“ Why did you change it?
• Watering - dripping rain system, I seen him drink frequently.
• Fecal Description - Brown and whites as usual, a little watery in consistency. Never tested for parasites.
• History - A strange bump appeared about two months ago and was given a topical ointment by the vet immediately, it’s decreasing in size and almost gone but his last few sheds have been really rough, and in the area of that bump especially. Can you post a pic of the bump? Did the vet think it was infection?

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - screen cage, 4ft tall- 2ft - 2ft width
• Lighting - all lighting products (fixture and bulbs from petsmart. Regular heat bulb and a uvb bulb I try to change at around 6 months. Petsmart doesn’t sell T5HO to my knowledge. Is your uvb a screw in bulb?
• Temperature - 77 with lights off, in the day usually in the low 80s consistently. Measure with a little sticky thermometer.
• Humidity - I don’t have the thing that measured his humidity because it got very nasty and I haven’t replaced it, generally his humidity was always very high and I live in FL so it’s high in general. It’s important to measure humidity. Too high during the day can contribute to upper respiratory infection. I’m also in central Fl and while humidity is high outside, the central ac keeps it between 35-45%.
• Plants - Pothos, corn plant, and occasional trips to my hibiscus outside.
• Placement - Cage located in my living room, by a window but no air vents or constant traffic in that room.
• Location - Central FL

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

My sweet Panther chameleon turned 5 this year, everything has been fine but suddenly it seems he is so weak. I took him outside and noticed he almost couldn’t even hold up his own weight, he flipped upside down and just hung there and I grabbed him and immediately brought him inside, then today I noticed him sitting on a limb with no grip, just laying on it very dark and very cold so I rushed him into the sink for a warm bath and he brightened up. This has only been like the last two weeks but I’m devastated, of course I need to get him to the vet ASAP but I’m not off again until Tuesday and I’m mortified he may pass by then. I’m not sure what to do, or even what’s happening! I feel horrible and guilty, at this point I don’t even know if there’s anything I can do. I included a photo of him on my hand.
From the pic he looks a little chubby, but otherwise ok to my eyes. Do keep in mind that I’m not experienced with panthers...I keep veileds.
My concern would be possible start of some mbd. Crickets have a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio, you haven’t been giving calcium with each feeding or D3 often enough and not sure if your uvb is correct. It’s taken so long to manifest as you were doing the correct supplementation previously and do take him outside for natural sun.
Other concern would be if the bump is an infection. Chameleons pus is thick and doesn’t go away on it’s own with antibiotics the way it does for other animals. It needs to be cleaned out by a vet and then antibiotics can better clear the infection.
Perhaps @kinyonga or @Beman can be of more help.

View attachment 274796View attachment 274797

 

[Beman]

Hi there and welcome. I agree with the feedback you already got from @MissSkittles

Few things though. He is looking like he is holding fat. With Panthers their casques hold it as a last place like Veileds do. The casque should be smooth and flat not full looking especially the top of it. I would decrease feeding back to 3-4 feeders every other day.

Now then supplementation is a big deal. Not supplementing with Calcium with D3 is one thing if they are getting outdoor time have have the proper uvb lighting. But not using calcium without D3 or a multivitamin is not doing the little man any favors. While they do go through phases of not eating or being very fussy eaters this is not due to their supplementation. And since our feeders do not have everything they need and would get in the wild we have to supplement them to ensure they do not suffer from vitamin and or calcium deficiencies.

Per the bump... If it were me I would be calling the vet and asking for details. What was done, what did they find, is it an infection, does he need antibiotics as well. Etc. If your vet is not a real reptile vet that has experience with chameleons then I would get a new vet.

While he is older they can live much longer then 5 years with proper husbandry. So I believe making sure that you follow up with the vet is a good step. Start supplementing again and if you would like feedback on good supplements to use let us know. Make sure that your feeders are being properly gutloaded.

Another thing I want to note is please do not put him in a bath of water. Warm, cold, or room temp. All are bad for him and will cause additional stress. Chameleons do not naturally ever submerge themselves in water like that. Also what you may think is warm may be quite hot to him.

Good luck with your little man he is a handsome boy.

 

[Juliette]

Thank you so much for the feedback! His regular vet considers herself an exotic vet but works mostly with beardies and has told me her experience with Chams was definitely not the best. I’ll try to find someone with a better eye for Chams and have them take a second look at that bump. I’ll also replace his uvb bulb ASAP just in case and go back to a strict supplement routine (recommendations for specific brands would be great) and hope that gets him back on track. Does it seem like him withholding that extra weight would be what’s causing him to be weaker generally? I also have been gut loading with random veggies I had laying around, but I was reading last night certain veggies are no good, recommendations for gut-loading also appreciated.

Hi there and welcome. I agree with the feedback you already got from @MissSkittles

Few things though. He is looking like he is holding fat. With Panthers their casques hold it as a last place like Veileds do. The casque should be smooth and flat not full looking especially the top of it. I would decrease feeding back to 3-4 feeders every other day.

Now then supplementation is a big deal. Not supplementing with Calcium with D3 is one thing if they are getting outdoor time have have the proper uvb lighting. But not using calcium without D3 or a multivitamin is not doing the little man any favors. While they do go through phases of not eating or being very fussy eaters this is not due to their supplementation. And since our feeders do not have everything they need and would get in the wild we have to supplement them to ensure they do not suffer from vitamin and or calcium deficiencies.

Per the bump... If it were me I would be calling the vet and asking for details. What was done, what did they find, is it an infection, does he need antibiotics as well. Etc. If your vet is not a real reptile vet that has experience with chameleons then I would get a new vet.

While he is older they can live much longer then 5 years with proper husbandry. So I believe making sure that you follow up with the vet is a good step. Start supplementing again and if you would like feedback on good supplements to use let us know. Make sure that your feeders are being properly gutloaded.

Another thing I want to note is please do not put him in a bath of water. Warm, cold, or room temp. All are bad for him and will cause additional stress. Chameleons do not naturally ever submerge themselves in water like that. Also what you may think is warm may be quite hot to him.

Good luck with your little man he is a handsome boy.

 

[Beman]

Thank you so much for the feedback! His regular vet considers herself an exotic vet but works mostly with beardies and has told me her experience with Chams was definitely not the best. I’ll try to find someone with a better eye for Chams and have them take a second look at that bump. I’ll also replace his uvb bulb ASAP just in case and go back to a strict supplement routine (recommendations for specific brands would be great) and hope that gets him back on track. Does it seem like him withholding that extra weight would be what’s causing him to be weaker generally? I also have been gut loading with random veggies I had laying around, but I was reading last night certain veggies are no good, recommendations for gut-loading also appreciated.

And you are using the linear UVB T5HO correct?

I like Earthpro A for calcium without D3. But you can only get it here. http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/arcadia-earth-pro-vitamins-100g-small-bag/
This one has bee pollen in it as well. I prefer its consistency over repcal calcium without D3. This is at every feeding except when you do one of the options below.

Then either Reptivite with D3 or Repashy calcium plus LoD Version for the multivitamin and calcium with D3. Both of these options would only be given 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th.

Being overweight can cause issues with how the internal organs function. It can create other issues if the organs stop working as well as they should. But I do not think this is the issue here...

For gutloading. Yes there are certain veg that will bind calcium such as Spinach. But with gutload keep in mind Variety is key. So if you are not able to buy 4-5 greens and a fruit and rotate what you use then going with a commercial gutload like repashy bug burger may be a better option for you. The gutload image was posted above for you.

 

[MissSkittles]

If you are in/near Orlando, here are some great cham vets.

There’s an excellent vet in Orlando that’s been seeing chameleons for many years.
Dr. Ivan Alfonso 407-275-7547

If you can’t see Dr. Alfonso right away, then I’d recommend Dr. Bruce. He’s been seeing chameleons for a long time, too. https://myavho.com/

If you’re in Brevard, I’ve seen a couple that are good.
Took a leopard gecko here and they were knowledgeable. Not sure about chams. https://alohavet.com/
Another is Dr Brennan at https://cocoaveterinary.com/
Then there is Dr O who does housecalls only, but as I feared he is closed during the pandemic.

 

[Juliette]

Thank you for the recommendations, I’m in the Orlando area so I’m going to try to reach out to one of those vets. Also, I called my usual vet to get a run down of the bump, she said it was just a fungus and the ointment is an anti-fungal. However the story has progressed, I just got home from work and his eye is swollen and has doubled in size, so I’m looking to get him in ASAP because I’m guessing some sort of infection is in the works, would definitely explain why he isn’t feeling well for sure.
@Beman

If you are in/near Orlando, here are some great cham vets.

If you’re in Brevard, I’ve seen a couple that are good.
Took a leopard gecko here and they were knowledgeable. Not sure about chams. https://alohavet.com/
Another is Dr Brennan at https://cocoaveterinary.com/
Then there is Dr O who does housecalls only, but as I feared he is closed during the pandemic.

 

[Beman]

Thank you for the recommendations, I’m in the Orlando area so I’m going to try to reach out to one of those vets. Also, I called my usual vet to get a run down of the bump, she said it was just a fungus and the ointment is an anti-fungal. However the story has progressed, I just got home from work and his eye is swollen and has doubled in size, so I’m looking to get him in ASAP because I’m guessing some sort of infection is in the works, would definitely explain why he isn’t feeling well for sure.
@Beman

Sorry to hear that hun. Hopefully you can get in to see a vet and they can give medication for infection if that is now what is happening.

 

[Juliette]

Update: he went to the vet today, he’s 153 gms, she did bloodwork and didn’t see anything unusual. His eye is fine again, but she did notice his strength is gone. She sent out his bloodwork to check for internal infection and gave me meds for possible parasites to be safe. She also gave him a calcium shot just because. I bought all new zoo med calcium with and without d3, a new thermometer/hydrometer and a new reptisun 5.0 uvb bulb. You were spot on that his humidity was way off, only at about 50%. So I heavily misted his cage and I’m going to look into the mister machines.

Sorry to hear that hun. Hopefully you can get in to see a vet and they can give medication for infection if that is now what is happening.

 

[Beman]

Update: he went to the vet today, he’s 153 gms, she did bloodwork and didn’t see anything unusual. His eye is fine again, but she did notice his strength is gone. She sent out his bloodwork to check for internal infection and gave me meds for possible parasites to be safe. She also gave him a calcium shot just because. I bought all new zoo med calcium with and without d3, a new thermometer/hydrometer and a new reptisun 5.0 uvb bulb. You were spot on that his humidity was way off, only at about 50%. So I heavily misted his cage and I’m going to look into the mister machines.

Once the bloodwork comes back this will give the Vet more to go on. Depending on what panels they ran they can see everything from vitamin levels to kidney function. fingers crossed for you that what ever has him down will be an easy fix.

 

[Hydra_cosplay]

Best wishes for your little buddy!

 

[Alexander1]

What did the vet end up finding?