Supplement Confusion

[Allen Repashy]

..but if the chameleon was short of vitamin A and you add both A and D in the 10/1 ratio you will still be out of balance.

Not if you remove the other source of Vitamin D and supplement only with the correct ratio

Dr. Lopez says..."vitamin A and vitamin D are antagonistic (incompletely)to each other. While both may be at toxic levels, the effects are not as evident due to their interaction"....
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html

As far as toxic levels, you are totally missing the point and your quote only reiterates this. When I say high and in balance, I am not talking about toxic and in balance. I am saying that when these vitamins are in balance, that you can have higher levels WITHOUT Toxicity.

As far as the recommendation to not supplement retinol, I totally disagree with what Dr. Lopez is saying. Look how long ago this was written. the last journal entry shows February 2004 (eight years!) and the Website calendar died and is stuck on 2006..... I wouldn't be surprised if this was originally written ten years ago. a LOT has been learned and published in the Veterinary world since then and I would like to know if he still stands behind this opinion. IMHO, this article is out dated and obsolete.

Based on these relationships, I also have a speculation that the more natural sunlight is provided (or uvb for that matter) the more likely we are to see hypovitamintosis A. This is because the body is going to have higher levels of 25OHD3 in the blood and require more Retinol to stay in balance. It also would mean that Chameleons that are kept with lower levels of UVB would be less likely to show signs of Vitamin A deficiency due to the ratio being less skewed.

Allen

 

[Hoj]

so just thought this might be as good a time as any to throw this out there, i bring this up because i was confused with the typical suggested supplement schedual and the ammount that the different products varyied if the ammount present.
this is a first draft and some of my math might not be right on, but there seem to be huge differences.
ex, how can we say calcium w/d3 twice a month if we dont know what brand it is, from what i have found rep-cap at 400,00iu is like 10 times stonger than most other products so 2 times a month can be a huge difference, then throw in different species and thing could get way off very fast..
i dunno if im way off here just my thoughts
please chime in...

Calcium with D3 supplement comparison


Exo-Terra calcium with D3

Calcium - min/max 35%-37%
D3 - 14,740 IU/lb
= 32,428 IU/kg / 1000 = 32.43 IU/g

EU typical analysis
Calcium 35%
D3 65mg/kg



Exo-Terra Multi-Vitamin with D3

Calcium - min/max 4.4%-4.6%
D3 - 9,979 IU/lb
= 21,953 IU/kg / 1000 = 21.95 IU/g
Beta Carotene (vitA) - 4.08mg/lb



Mineral indoor with D3 ( yellow top )

Calcium - min/max 34%-36%
D3 - 4,400 IU/kg = 4.40 IU/g



Rep-cal calcium with D3

Calcium min/max 35%-40%
D3 - 400,000 IU/kg = 400.0 IU/g



Zoo Med Reptivite with D3

Calcium min/max 24.9%-28%
D3 - 22,907IU/kg / 1000 = 22.91 IU/g
Vitamin A - 220,264IU/kg



Herpcare

Calcium max 33%
D3 20,000mg/kg / 1000 = 20.00 mg/g
Vitamin A - 10,000mg/kg
Beta Carotene 900mg/kg

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Not if you remove the other source of Vitamin D and supplement only with the correct ratio"....of course! Most people don't look at that which is why I was pointing out that giving them both wasn't putting things back in balance.

You said..."When I say high and in balance, I am not talking about toxic and in balance. I am saying that when these vitamins are in balance, that you can have higher levels WITHOUT Toxicity"...so are you saying that its okay to have them higher than normal?

You said..."It also would mean that Chameleons that are kept with lower levels of UVB would be less likely to show signs of Vitamin A deficiency due to the ratio being less skewed"...so you're saying that the low vitamin A won't show any affects to vision or reproduction because the D3 is low too?

 

[Allen Repashy]

You said..."When I say high and in balance, I am not talking about toxic and in balance. I am saying that when these vitamins are in balance, that you can have higher levels WITHOUT Toxicity"...so are you saying that its okay to have them higher than normal?

Tell me what normal is and I will answer your question The issue is that what you think is normal and I think is normal are two different levels. We have been on this point in previous posts and I feel like we are going in circles here.

so you're saying that the low vitamin A won't show any affects to vision or reproduction because the D3 is low too?

No, I am saying that it could be less likely to show deficiency signs because the ratios are just as important as the amounts... as I wrote in the previous post, this is only a theory of mine.

Cheers, Allen

 

[imcurt]

In addition to this, I have started adding liquid vitamin A (from gel capsules for humans, with a pin hole in it to get the liquid out).

I've noticed drastic improvements, and I started doing it after reading of other's experiences.

What you want is Retinyl Palmitate, or Halibut liver oil. I use one that has both types of vitamin A in one capsule.

I just put ONE DROP on ONE INSECT....ONCE a month.

Other than that, the above mentioned schedule is also what I use.

I to do the vit. A once a month as well, and on adult males over 15months old I skip 2 dustings calicum w/o d3 a week

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I feel like we are going in circles here"...I would say we are going in circles. Perhaps if you could explain it in a way that I could understand instead of talking with such a condescending attitude to me we wouldn't be going in circles.

Cheers,
Lynda

 

[Chris Anderson]

Lynda,

I have to agree with Allen and a couple other members in this thread. It blows me away that despite some of the most experienced and knowledgeable animal nutrition researchers, vets, keepers, breeders, and food producers pointing out the value of preformed vitamin A that there is so much insistence by individuals here that it is not necessary and should therefore be avoided.

The importance of Vitamins A and D to numerous physiological processes are well known and this knowledge combined with findings from research that indicates that chameleons may not be able to fully utilize beta-carotene should leave the importance of careful use of preformed vitamin A as a given. We also know that there are maternal effects of nutrient and hormone levels that could lead to multigenerational impacts of our current husbandry methods.

Just because a handful of pet animals survived fine and a couple odd clutches were produced and raised without it does not mean that it does not have vital multigenerational benefits or would not improve the general success rates of the hobby as a whole. We know there is a link between vitamin A and the immune system and if research indicating that not all chameleons are able to fully utilize beta-carotene is correct, failing to provide adequate levels of preformed vitamin A could be making everything more difficult on us than it needs to be.

There are many things we provide our animals with that are dangerous in too high or low of quantities. Preformed vitamin A and D are the same. We should absolutely be aware of the risks of hypervitaminosis and care should be taken to determine safe levels of dietary preformed A and D provided but the level of fear mongering surrounding the use of these nutrients that is perpetrated on these forums is truly unfortunate.

Do you know that a lack preformed vitamin A does not play into the cause of the general failure of chameleon keepers and breeders to maintain chameleon bloodlines of most species past a handful of generations without the introduction of wild blood and can tell us what is the cause? None of our successes in keeping and breeding these animals (other than C. calyptratus) are good enough to even begin to claim that trying methods to improve the overall quality of our nutrition is anything but beneficial.

I for one am very intrigued by supplements like Allen's that are now available with preformed vitamin A. I think there is a very good chance that the addition of these nutrients to our chameleon's diets will prove to be highly beneficial when provided appropriately and I find Allen's thoughts on the topic to be quite logical, well researched and not at all difficult to understand.

Chris

 

[Allen Repashy]

You said..."I feel like we are going in circles here"...I would say we are going in circles. Perhaps if you could explain it in a way that I could understand instead of talking with such a condescending attitude to me we wouldn't be going in circles.

Cheers,
Lynda

I am sorry if you are taking what I say as condescending. Believe me, I am not trying to do that. I just don't know how to break it down any more than I already have. It is not an easy topic to understand, and I don't claim to have all the answers. In fact, every answer I find, opens up a whole new box of questions.

I am not a teacher, and do the best I can to communicate my thoughts and experiences so that I can help other people learn, and possible learn something from them. That is the best I can do.

Allen.

 

[fluxlizard]

so just thought this might be as good a time as any to throw this out there, i bring this up because i was confused with the typical suggested supplement schedual and the ammount that the different products varyied if the ammount present.
this is a first draft and some of my math might not be right on, but there seem to be huge differences.
ex, how can we say calcium w/d3 twice a month if we dont know what brand it is, from what i have found rep-cap at 400,00iu is like 10 times stonger than most other products so 2 times a month can be a huge difference, then throw in different species and thing could get way off very fast..

Hey Hoj-

There are several other variables which make the IU/per kg a little more shaky as a measure of d3 delivered.

Consider these-

1- ability of the product to stick to the insect. Rep-cal doesn't stick nearly as well as minerall or herpcare. In fact herpcare sticks so well that when I tried the product I killed a number of crickets because it clogged them up and dried them out pretty quickly. Minerall sticks much better than rep-cal. So with minerall and herpcare, more of the product will be delivered to the lizard if it is fed immediately vs the rep-cal (such as hand fed immediately after dusting). What happens to IU/kg when only half as much product sticks to the feeder insect from one brand vs another?

2- duration of the product sticking to the insect. When I used a little less of the herpcare and didn't kill the insects the stuff stuck to them for a day or more. Minerall sticks pretty well too- will stay on for several hours sometimes. Rep-cal is mostly gone within an hour or two. So, if you are bowl feeding and your chameleon takes his time going to the bowl or has leftovers that he snacks on throughout the day or even the next day, amount of product delivered (and resulting d3) per insect is going to vary quite a bit depending on the brand and how well it sticks for any length of time. Same if you offer food freely in the enclosure so the cham can hunt a bit. What happens to IU/kg 2 or 3 hours after feeding when rep-cal insect has only 5% of it's original powder still stuck to it when the chameleon eats it vs the minerall where 70% still adheres to it?

3- Gutloading- I think we can figure this one out, but obviously amount of d3 and vit a can be effected by what we gutload. What happens to IU/kg when there may be extra d3 in the gutload on top of what is delivered in the dust?

4- lighting- sunlight vs artificial uvb. I've bred chams under vita-lites and even chroma 50s which I didn't realize had no uvb output. People probably use old tubes with little uvb output fairly often- especially "pet" owners. Also I've seen lots of people over the years place tubes to far from the animals to be effective anyway. When correct- the tubes provide most of the d3 for the lizard and supplements just act as a safety net. When incorrectly used, it is the other way around or even worse- all d3 comes from diet.

5- heating- this is just my really strong "hunch"/opinion because I've never seen it proven in a study, and I might be going off topic too much and opening up a whole can of worms- but I really believe that warm temperature plays a much larger role in ability of lizards to effectively utilize dietary vit d3 and probably other nutrients as well. I don't mean just because of increased metabolism- I mean ability to actually effectively take in and use it. I believe this because I have raised and bred species of lizard without UVB that nutritional studies "proved" had to have it, yet my lizards had strong bones and excellent shells on eggs and strong hatchlings. Some of these lizards were casually necropsied by a vet in a lab at a vet school, some were x-rayed when alive- all had excellent bone density and structure. Eggs looked great and hatched great to great babies too. I'm thinking mainly of iguanas as I type this, but I've also raised bearded dragons egg to egg without uvb, collard lizards and probably chameleons this way as well as I went a while using chroma 50s for chameleons- though this was not long before I started keeping animals outdoors during the summer, so I'm less confident about some species. If my hunch about why my lizards succeeded when those in some of these probably outdated studies failed, then it is because I provided higher basking temperatures than animals were provided in the studies. Which would mean basking temps influence absorption and utilization of d3. Low temps= less effectively delivered. Of course there could be other factors at play rather than temperature- balances in nutrition my animals had that those in the studies did not (vit a?). I was casual about it at the time- no bloodwork or lab work, so other things could have been the reason for success.

6- age of the chameleon. Is it's metabolism high because it is young and growing or lower because it is old? High metabolism might equal more demand for d3.

7- ratios and balances of nutrients- like mr. Rapeshy is talking about with vit a. I really like the wholistic thinking that comes from a real knowledge of nutrition and will probably be trying his product. It drives me nuts when I see hobbyists thinking about each element as if it were the only one to ever be fed whether it is a gutload ingredient, an insect, or a vitamin. This isolation view is so blind- as humans we look at our total diet and eat a wide variety so we get something from tomatoes, something else from carrots, something else from peas, something else from fish, something else from spinach. It is no different for lizards. The total and all the balances should be considered.

8- almost forgot- size of the feeder insects. smaller insects have more body surface and therefore more product sticks to and is delivered to the lizard by weight of insect. In other words if 10 smaller insects weigh as much as 5 larger ones and the lizard eats that weight in insects, more dust will be delivered from the smaller insects than from the larger ones. So more total d3 is delivered if you feed a whole bunch of 1/4" crickets to fill your lizard rather than fewer 3/4" crickets.

What does it all mean?

Personally I feel like many here on the forums believe that toxic levels are much lower than they actually are for d3 and vit a. I think there is a much wider margin of safety than many seem to believe. I believe all of the above illustrates this.

But also my experience makes me believe this- from early to mid 90s I kept all my chameleons indoors used rep-cal with d3 at every feeding. I used reptivite 1x per week. Generally I fed enough to last 2 days in the bowls. In the mid 90s I used rep-cal with d3 indoors and out as I had begun outdoor summer housing, and by the end of the 90s I still used rep-cal with d3 every indoor feeding, but plain calcium or minerall o when they were outdoors. I bred a number of species successfully throughout the 90s. Some in pretty decent numbers (hundreds per year- thousands over the decade). I have immediate family who are vets and friends who are vets. I had "casual" necropsies of many lizards throughout the 90s both with and without veterinary supervision. By casual I mean no lab or microscope, just opening up dead animals to see how they were doing. For what it is worth we never saw evidence of vitamin toxicity in any animal we examined.

That's not to say I don't think current thinking of careful supplementation isn't a better idea than my old way of dusting with rep-cal with d3 year round every meal. And I'm not trying to encourage everyone to go out and dust with rep-cal with d3 every feeding like I did. I've altered my husbandry a bit since joining the forums- some has worked well for me, some changes did not (I will not go vit a free again- bad experience this spring trying to raise panthers that way which I was able to correct but was unnecessary). I plan to try mr rapeshy's product now as well.

But I do relate my experience just to illustrate that toxic levels are probably large enough that a bit of vit a in a supplement or d3 in a supplement used every once in a while isn't going to harm and probably is going to help. We see problems probably related from not enough of these two vitamins all the time here on the forums- can't aim, clumsy, eye problems, falling etc.

Now I have a question- why is the trend among vit a believers to use drops from gel-caps for maintenance purposes? Why not reptivite or some other multivitamin with vit a already in it? I corrected my problem this spring with a few doses over a couple weeks from gel caps but for maintenance I just use reptivite. I've never had problems when using reptivite every week or two...

 

[clarkrw3]

fluxlizard --
Thank you so much for your input on this topic.

In truth I think it would be great if a Mod could take the info here and the Superworm Repashy Bug Burger thread and put them together in a thread that would be easier for people to read and find. There is a lot of GREAT info in both threads that to some extent flies in the face of some commonly held "truths" on the forum that I feel are important for many on the forum to read and it might be overlooked in these threads that have gone off topic.

fluxlizard you have brought together many issues that I have had in my mind about the recommended Repcal supplementation practices on the forum and said it in a way that is much more eloquent then I could have put together. Thank You

Another issue along the same lines is if you are only giving a supplements twice a month whats to say they are going to be eating the same on that day? Did they pig out the day before? are they starting a shed that day? have they decided that they don't like that feeder that day?
On the issue of feeder size and nutrition you have to take into account that the outside "shell" of the insect isn't the nutritional part and the greater surface area to volume ratio of the small bugs are not the same as the large bugs. Large "well gutloaded" insects are better nutritionally than smaller ones but deliver less supplement.

All the things you brought up push me towards the Repashy Calcium Plus because all those variables are gone. I REALLY hope that it turns out to be the correct path because it has so much going for it.

I would love for you to expand on your poor experiences without Vit A. What were you seeing? how long did you see it? how long did it take to resolve? and what were the ages of the chams? what was your protocol to reverse the issue?

Now I have a question- why is the trend among vit a believers to use drops from gel-caps for maintenance purposes? Why not reptivite or some other multivitamin with vit a already in it? I corrected my problem this spring with a few doses over a couple weeks from gel caps but for maintenance I just use reptivite. I've never had problems when using reptivite every week or two...

I am using it to try and correct issues. I will shift to Reptivite or the Repashy Vit A dust once I have things back to normal. I think the Repashy Vit A is good but it also just came out a month ago or so, so a Gel cap was an easy readily available source of Vit A.

 

[Hoj]

fluxlizard

thank you for your insite into this topic, it sure has alot of unexplored territory.
as for you questions regarding ammount or various feeders and the ammount acctually staying on the insect.
the next part of my little reasearch is to try and weigh the ammount that is acctuall on the feeders, ( i have not found a scale accurate enough yet )
also to comment on the fact that many are using vit a capsols instead of a product such as reptivite.
i do use reptivite regularly and very much like the product.
however
1. i have a chameleon who lost his tounge and requires very aggressive vit a treatments to keep his appetite up and he also has huge issues with his eyes if vit a is not present.
2. by using the capsole and drop idea one can insure that the cham is getting the vit a ( if hand fed ) thus removing some of the problem stated in your post..

i would love to see a big round table disscussion on this topic as it is a huge part of my and others husbandry that is still very confusing as to reach a concencus

sorry im a terrible typer and cant always type what exactly im thinking.

hoj

 

[Parandrus]

Allen, I definitely admire your passion for nutrition and after reading this latest thread you definitely got me out of "retirement" and got me to post here. When we have corresponded before, I told you that vitamin A was a very sensitive topic in the chameleon world and now you see it for yourself.

When I got into chameleons in 1992, plenty of people claimed that UVB was unnecessary. That they raised generations after generations of chameleons with regular bulbs and supplements and nothing ever happened. Fast forward a few years after that, and everyone absolutely agrees that UVB is a MUST for every chameleon.
The same issue will happen with vitamin A. Just because we don't understand it fully yet and just because we don't really know how much chameleons need, doesn't mean that vitamin A is not needed in their captive husbandry. I have treated successfully a lot more cases of vitaimin A deficiency than cases with respiratory infections. Why would this be? Because people understand a bit more how to prevent a respiratory infection than they understand how to prevent nutritional deficiencies.

There is no denying that vitamin A is needed by chameleons, the question is how much. That question will take some time to have a concrete answer but in the meantime we have products at our disposal that we can use sparingly to make sure we avoid vitamin A deficiencies. Those who have never needed to supplement their chameleons with vitamin A are doing something good and should be commended for it. Those of us who have the need to use the vitamin A supplements are not causing harm to our chameleons, we are just trying to make sure we are not missing something.

Here is something very interesting from Chris' post:

"Do you know that a lack preformed vitamin A does not play into the cause of the general failure of chameleon keepers and breeders to maintain chameleon bloodlines of most species past a handful of generations without the introduction of wild blood and can tell us what is the cause? None of our successes in keeping and breeding these animals (other than C. calyptratus) are good enough to even begin to claim that trying methods to improve the overall quality of our nutrition is anything but beneficial."

I think that paragraph says it all in terms of summarizing the whole Vitamin A debate in layman's terms. How do we really know that what we are doing now is as good as we can get? We don't know and the evidence is that we have gotten better and better as the years go by. Always improving. And I will even venture a theory/guess that the reason also why Veileds are easier to breed in multiple generations is because they are also more apt to consume non-traditional items such as flowers, leaves, mice, lizards, etc. They are likely getting extra nutrition, and likely vitamin A amongst it, from food items that other chameleons are not known to consume.


It is my opinion that as long as excess is avoided, you can supplement with vitamin A and it should bring only good things for your chameleons.

 

[kinyonga]

Chris said..."It blows me away that despite some of the most experienced and knowledgeable animal nutrition researchers, vets, keepers, breeders, and food producers pointing out the value of preformed vitamin A that there is so much insistence by individuals here that it is not necessary and should therefore be avoided."...I don't recall that I ever said it should be avoided. I usually say that I don't use it and it hasn't seemed to be a problem with my chameleons.

You said..."the level of fear mongering surrounding the use of these nutrients that is perpetrated on these forums is truly unfortunate"...I only recall saying that it should be used with care/caution and that it needs to be in balance with D3 (so, for instance adding prEformed vitamin A by using a fish oil which contains D3 while continuing to supplement with D3 won't keep the balance between the two, and that using a vitamin powder with a beta carotene source of vitamin A will not create an overdose, but leave the chameleon's owner free to add prEformed vitamin A in a controlled fashion when/as needed).

You said..."Just because a handful of pet animals survived fine and a couple odd clutches were produced and raised without it does not mean that it does not have vital multigenerational benefits or would not improve the general success rates of the hobby as a whole"...I began breeding veileds in about l995 and those lines continued by adding in CB males when needed all the way along until the death of my last one a few years ago (maybe 2005..don't have my records handy to look at)....never counted the generations. Only the original WC ones I had might have had prEformed vitamin A. All I can say is that they have produced healthy babies that have lived long lives with no apparent illnesses generally. Most of my females live to be over 6 years old and some over 7 and the males live even longer.

 

[ataraxia]

how do we control the limits of excess or deficiency with vitA or d3 using supervite or reptivite without knowing the proper amount to deliver. i would think some sort of simple measurement with supplement amount to body weight should be labeled.

will 10 dusted crickets deliver the same amount as 3 crickets dusted? whats the difference between lightly or heavy dusting to you and the next guy? we need more precise but simple information.

 

[kinyonga]

It would be very hard to control excesses/deficiencies unless you took a specific amount and put it in the chameleon's mouth. Even then you would have to take into consideration how fast the chameleon's metabolism is...is the cage warm enough or too warm?

There will always be the question of how many insects did the chameleon eat before the dust fell off the insects (if it did fall off)....how nutritious was the insect in the first place...was what it was gutloaded/fed with nutritious? How heavily coated were the insects to begin with.

We also have to know how much each species needs.

I'm sure I've missed some things too.

 

[Mario Vermunt]

What is the recommended dosage for Vit. A in terms of micro gram/ gram weight for reptiles/chameleons? (if there is any?)

I looked for humans (ofcourse no chameleon) it is i read 600 ug. (http://www.lenntech.com/recommended-daily-intake.htm)
More then 9000 milligrams gives side affects in humans. (thats 15.000 times the recommended level) So thats a very large bandwith!

Lets say a human weights 60 kg for easy calculation, gives 10ug/kg equals 0.01 ug/gram recommendation. (overdose equals to 150ug/gram)

I have experimented myself on pardalis females and lateralis just before breeding till just after mating in 3 weeks time frame. (idea to have much Vit.A into the eggs) (used dropplets from Davitamon)
The Pardalis went great, females and clutch hatchlings giving them 20ug/day (that equals lets say to 0.2 ug/gram)
With the lateralis i gave the same dose but due to smaller weight lets say it has been 2 ug/gram a day. This female died 2 weeks after this 3 week periode, with symptoms i do believe caused by overdosage of vitamine A.

Compared to human recommended intake thats 200 times more.

I find it a pitty hardly any actual numbers in terms of ug Vit A./gram body weight are used in the discussion, which makes "much" or "less" not really meaningfull.

Quote Chris:
"Do you know that a lack preformed vitamin A does not play into the cause of the general failure of chameleon keepers and breeders to maintain chameleon bloodlines of most species past a handful of generations without the introduction of wild blood and can tell us what is the cause?"

I do think some deaths are due to under dosage or over dosage, but it is not in the Top list of deaths, and agree definately not for multiple generations.

My own theory why many multiple generations is not easily met:
Chameleons produce typically many eggs, for a balance in nature from the original pair, only 2 of all the offspring needs to survive, all the others are to be eaten, most likely the weakest, less fittest ones, or in case of low food amount the worst grown ones, some just really thrive after being born, some just dont thrive as well.
If i look to my own turtle experiment of 30 turtles, the smallest ones born, are the worst performing, the ones that died in the first 10 years are exactly those smaller ones when born. The middle range aint reproducing yet, while the largest ones that were born are now also still the largest ones.

It is survival of the fittest, and we as keepers/breeders, let the less fittest survive which in nature would probably not have. Introducing a WC (which is a winner in the survival of the fittest) enhances it again.

Already once born you can predict to some degree which animals can become winners, and which will definately not be. (i have seen this personal with fish, turtles and chameleons)

Well then there are a few winners within each clutch, which could make the cycle round again, get past some husbandry problems, parasites etc.
Not one person can give such a stable situation as is in nature, anyone keeping chameleons can within a timeframe of lets say 10 years not keep all the factors the same, if something pops up the chain of reproduction is broken.

 

[Allen Repashy]

I have actually done quite extensive testing when it comes to what is actually being delivered to a cricket. Here is an article that breaks a lot of it down.

store.repashy.com/vitamins-and-minerals-in-the-superfood-products.html

In a nutshell, I dusted and weighed crickets a hundred grams at a time to see how much dust was sticking.

Then I figured out the % by dry weight that was sticking (removing the water weight of the cricket) which came out to around 16%.

Then I looked at the nutritional value of a cricket and what the limiting factor was that everything else needed to be balanced to......

In a cricket, phosphorous is the limiting factor... for round numbers, a cricket averages about 1% phosphorous DMB.

So to balance this, we need a dusted cricket that contains 2% calcium.

So I calculated how much of the dust needs to be calcium carbonate to attain these levels as best as possible.

Then to balance the calcium with vitamin D based on complete diet formulations (looking at the dusted cricket as a complete diet) we want around 4,000 IU/kg

Through calculations, I figured out how much of the dust needs to be Vitamin D in order to end up with this level as best as possible.

Then, I applied the 10:1 ration of Vitamin A to D to the package and added ten times the amount of Vitamin A to the formula....

And actually, Vitamin E also is connected as a ratio to the other fat soluble vitamins... it is actually 100 parts A to 10 parts D to 1 part E.

So I added Vitamin E ath the correct ratio...

And on down the line with every other Vitamin.. B complex, C, K, choline... carotenoids (beta carotene) etc.

So at the end of the day, what I did was to look at the dusted cricket as a complete meal and through calculations, added ingredients to balance these levels to the limiting nutrient phosphorous in this case. This gives us to the best of my calculations, a Dusted cricket that has a 2:1 calcium to phosphorous ratio with balanced levels of ALL Vitamins to the "best of my knowledge and ability".

I don't know a better way to do it and think that this gets us very close when we look at the margins of safety for vitamin A and D.

If twice as much dust was sticking to the cricket, we would only have a 2x factor.. much less than the 10x-15x margins that are often quoted.

This is why I think it is so important to have one single dust that contains everything in a pre balanced ratio... trying to get this kind of balance by rotating two different products is going to be nearly impossible.

So how do we adjust for more sensitive species?

I would suggest simply dusting at every other feeding, or two out of three feedings, etc..... to keep balance but reduce levels across the board.

If you wanted to be really anal about it, you could dust at these alternating feedings with a calcium and NO D dust. But in order to get close to a 2:1 ratio, it would need to be a very light dusting, or the calcium carbonate would need to be cut about in half with something like powdered sugar or another very fine carrier.

Allen

 

[ataraxia]

your post was moderated. do you mind sending the link to me in a pm?

i would still like to see actual proper "in general" units of measurement on your supplements to chameleon weight per day or feeding.

im thankful for guys like you doing the research to better the lives of reptiles.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Lynda,

I have to agree with Allen and a couple other members in this thread. It blows me away that despite some of the most experienced and knowledgeable animal nutrition researchers, vets, keepers, breeders, and food producers pointing out the value of preformed vitamin A that there is so much insistence by individuals here that it is not necessary and should therefore be avoided.

Well, I suppose some of the difference of opinion comes from the Fact that there are people (including experienced and knowledgeable people) who do not provide retinol supplementation yet still are able to keep long-lived, healthy chameleons.

While I dont insist retinol should be avoided (nor do I recall Lynda ever doing so, or anyone else), I do think its rather condescending / ridiculous (if well intensioned) for anyone to tell me that it MUST be provided, or having people say "there's no denying it is necessary" since that isnt truthful/accurate/correct/right. For well over a decade, I didnt supplement with it, nothing i fed my feeders contained it, I had long-lived, successfully breeding animals. Hence I have first hand personal evidence that, in my situation, supplementation with retinol is not necessary. Im sure you'll understand how one might put faith in their personal successfull experiences.

Which in no way takes away from others offering a different husbandry regime finding their needs are different, having successes with methods different from mine. Im in full agreeance/acceptance that preformed vitamin A can have value, despite strangely not being necessary for me / my chameleons.

What bothers me is the tone of those who insist there is a rule, that only their way is possible. Much like the "screen cages" and "all CLFs are bad" debates, the preformed vitamin A debate seems to turn some otherwise pleasant people towards insistent ranting, instead of discussion aimed at further enlightment. How unfortunate, since We ALL have much to learn.

 

[Brad]

Frans Kusuma (dodolah) did a great interview with Dr. Gary Ferguson a few years ago. They discussed vitamin A, beta carotene, and preformed retinol supplements. I believe Gary Ferguson also briefly covered this topic in his book, The Panther Chameleon.
http://chamworld.blogspot.com/2008/03/chat-with-dr-gary-w-ferguson.html (6,7,8)