Supplement Confusion

[Parandrus]

Hi Sandra. I don't think that people being passionate about something makes them unpleasant. I also don't think anyone is taking a condescending tone, at least not on purpose. But you have to understand that there are always 2 sides to every story and the same way we (the people pro-vitamin A) may sound unpleasant and ranting to you, the same can be said from our point of view about you (the people anti-vitamin A). You said it right, we have much to learn and in the end I will admit to one thing, we get carried away discussing supplements when we should be more concerned with providing enough of a proper nutrition to not need supplements.
So yes, vitamin A supplementation shouldn't be needed at all, neither calcium, other vitamins or any other minerals if we can provide a duplicate of nature's recipe.
Like I told you on my blog when you posted, I am convinced you are doing something right, very right. But I am also sure that if you were to go out of yuor way to deliberately avoid any item with any vitamin A or precursors of it, you will encounter issues in species like Panthers and veileds. I don't think you want to do that but I am certain of it, because I have seen it happen myself and have had to treat full breeding collections for Vitamin A deficiecies. Once corrected, the animals do quite well with a sporadic supplementation of this vitamin.

I am very sorry if I have come across as unpleasant or as ranting, I am trying to come across as passionate. The one animal that made me want to become a veterinarian was a chameleon, so I have a lot invested in wanting to make sure we can keep them healthy for as long as possible. You should share with everyone your feeding practices and your supplement schedule (if you use any) because you might have the key to not needing supplements, and that is the goal here.

I actually think that these discussions are very productive because, as long as they stay civil, we can all bounce ideas from the "far right" to the "far left" and eventually we will find the middle, which is what will be beneficial for our chameleons. Thank you for posting you experience and look forward to your sharing any tips or info on your husbandry.

 

[clarkrw3]

I had a thought this morning and would love to hear what some of you think that have a far greater understanding of all of this than myself.

My understanding is that in ovo pather chams do utilize Beta Carotene. Is it possible that if after hatching they are not given much of, if any, Retinol they may retain that ability to utilize Beta Carotene. I am thinking about how with "great" nutrition SandraChameleons has kept multi generations in her mostly Retinol free protocol. All the while chams that have been given a high Retinol supplementation since hatching can develop deficiencies within a month of being placed on a high Beta Carotene protocol.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Dear Sandra and Lynda,

As Ivan has rightly pointed out, while you may interpret some of the “pro preformed vitamin A” responses as unpleasant, condescending or ranting, to those of us on that side, some of the “anti preformed vitamin A” responses have come across the same way. You’ve pointed out in another thread on the same topic (https://www.chameleonforums.com/anyone-gutload-superworms-reprashy-bug-burger-65567/) the unfortunate mentality of there being a rules to successful chameleon keeping, citing the “screen cages” and “CFL bulb” debates as examples, yet in our point of view, the “vitamin A is dangerous and unnecessary” responses are themselves very close to this type of mentality. As Ivan pointed out, the reality is that the best-case scenario is likely somewhere in the middle, but in my opinion, for too long the only opinion pushed on this forum has been that of preformed vitamin A being dangerous and unnecessary and having the opposing point of view voiced is long overdue.

Vitamin A is known in many animals to be involved in many of the systems where we see the most issues with in chameleons. Vitamin A is known to help regulate the immune system, promote healthy surface linings of the eyes and respiratory tracts, correct “short tongue syndrome” in dart frogs, etc. There is also evidence that some chameleons may not be able to fully utilize beta-carotene. To me, it seems obvious that carefully providing preformed vitamin A has the potential to provide considerable benefits.

In your cases, the majority of the success you are crediting as evidence that preformed vitamin A is not necessary is based on your own successes with F. pardalis and Ch. calyptratus. These examples may indicate that there are ways to get around a need for supplementation with preformed vitamin A in some species under some circumstances, but they may also violate two key points.

One of the points I’ve tried to push when fighting the screen cage and CFL bulb debates is that there are >200 species and subspecies of chameleon. While F. pardalis and Ch. calyptratus may be good indicators of the needs of the largest percentage of individual chameleon specimens kept in captivity, they are not good indicators of the needs of the majority of chameleon species. Clearly, the largest shortcoming in our efforts to successful maintain and propagate chameleons in captivity is with the majority of chameleon species, not F. pardalis and Ch. calyptratus. F. pardalis and Ch. calyptratus, as what I would call habitat generalists, are naturally more resilient than most chameleon species and more adapt to deal with environmental stressors that they would encounter in captivity. Multigenerational success with Ch. calyptratus is hardly indicative of results with most chameleon species. As I mentioned before, besides Ch. calyptratus, there is a general lack of ability to maintain captive bred lineages to multiple generations without the introduction of wild caught bloodlines and with it, natural nutrient balances. Citing the one species we don’t have this problem with as evidence that preformed vitamin A is not needed for multigenerational success with most species is hardly conclusive. If there is a close second on the list of species we have the most multigenerational success with, its F. pardalis. While we may be producing these species in multiple generations without the need to supplement preformed vitamin A, how do we know that we wouldn’t be more successful and have fewer issues overall with them if we did? How do we know that with other, more delicate species we wouldn’t have better results? There are sufficient indications that using preformed vitamin A is beneficial in numerous ways and our husbandry is too far from perfect to avoid trying to improve it.

An additional point is that what may work for some keepers may not be what will work best for others. While some prominent members of this forum swear by a very hands on and free ranging approach to keeping their chameleons, and it works beautifully for them, this approach is not ideal for everyone. You both are very experienced chameleon keepers who have your husbandry techniques down and instinctively know how to properly care for your animals. Your experience and the consistency in your husbandry will naturally limit environmental stressors from the environment you provide to your chameleon. Fewer environmental stressors will put less stress on the immune system and thus fewer health issues. Since vitamin A is known to help regulate the immune system, if regulation of the immune system were imbalanced relative to its balance in the wild due to the vitamin A levels you provide, you would likely see a lesser effect than you would with a higher number of stressors from the captive environment. In other words, your husbandry may be down in a way that you wouldn’t experience many of the negative impacts of not supplementing preformed vitamin A, while other keepers and other species that are less tolerant of deviations from their ideal environment may benefit more from supplementing preformed vitamin A.

Chris

 

[sandrachameleon]

Hi Sandra. I don't think that people being passionate about something makes them unpleasant. I also don't think anyone is taking a condescending tone, at least not on purpose. But you have to understand that there are always 2 sides to every story and the same way we (the people pro-vitamin A) may sound unpleasant and ranting to you, the same can be said from our point of view about you (the people anti-vitamin A). You said it right, we have much to learn and in the end I will admit to one thing, we get carried away discussing supplements when we should be more concerned with providing enough of a proper nutrition to not need supplements.
So yes, vitamin A supplementation shouldn't be needed at all, neither calcium, other vitamins or any other minerals if we can provide a duplicate of nature's recipe.
Like I told you on my blog when you posted, I am convinced you are doing something right, very right. But I am also sure that if you were to go out of yuor way to deliberately avoid any item with any vitamin A or precursors of it, you will encounter issues in species like Panthers and veileds. I don't think you want to do that but I am certain of it, because I have seen it happen myself and have had to treat full breeding collections for Vitamin A deficiecies. Once corrected, the animals do quite well with a sporadic supplementation of this vitamin.

I am very sorry if I have come across as unpleasant or as ranting, I am trying to come across as passionate. The one animal that made me want to become a veterinarian was a chameleon, so I have a lot invested in wanting to make sure we can keep them healthy for as long as possible. You should share with everyone your feeding practices and your supplement schedule (if you use any) because you might have the key to not needing supplements, and that is the goal here.

I actually think that these discussions are very productive because, as long as they stay civil, we can all bounce ideas from the "far right" to the "far left" and eventually we will find the middle, which is what will be beneficial for our chameleons. Thank you for posting you experience and look forward to your sharing any tips or info on your husbandry.

Yes, there are always 2 sides (or more) to every story - that's my point. That's why i post the info that some people, like me, do have success without supplementing with retinol.

It does feel like sometimes people speak as if I must be untruthful or out to lunch, when they insist retinol supplementation is necessary. That's what I find condescending / uncivil. Please understand, Im not specifically meaning you, nor am I calling out any one person. Its a common tone. I will try to read it as "Passionate"

Please know also - I am NOT anti-vitamin A.
Chris, I have never said "vitamin A is dangerous and unnecessary" - I will likely have said TOO MUCH vitamin A could be dangerous (which is true for too much of anything, including water).
I would ask you to re-read my posts and not label me inaccurately as anti-vitamin A. Its this sort of false, and to me inflamatory, statement that makes the discussion feel negative.

For example, have a look at what one of my blog entries says about vitamin A:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
I include links to some of the hottest threads on the subject, most of which have many posts in support the use of some preformed vitamin A.

I do already "share with everyone [my] feeding practices and [my]supplement schedule " in a fair bit of detail.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/food-diary/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

I have also started threads specifically about my practises asking if anyone can identify why my not providing preformed vitamin A is not causing problems, or what I may be doing / offering that does provide it, or makes up for its lack, in an effort to try to understand my peculiar success.
for example: https://www.chameleonforums.com/other-sources-vitamin-22452/

I am well aware that most people on this forum, and perhaps in captive practise generally, find some vitamin A supplementation necessary. I also fully believe, and often state, that some amount of preformed vitamin A is certainly not harmful, would be perfectly natural, and may very well be beneficial.

My suggestion is that people refrain, as I try to do, from making blanket statements as if they were hard and fast rules. There is more than one pathway to success, and we shouldnt any of us discount the experiences of each other. Rather, we need to hear what everyone has to offer and learn from all points of view.

There has been no lack of discussion about the usefulness of preformed vitamin A. The topic comes up monthly at least. Im not sure why some feel the topic is ignored or that there has been established practise of disuading its use - that's not what I've noticed here.

You are quite right, open Civil discussion can be very productive.

Its also entirely true that there are A LOT of different types of chameleon, and what works (or doesnt) for one type is almost guaranteed to not work for at least one other type!

 

[clarkrw3]

With all this discussion, I came across something I am sure I read before but it had not sunk in. In The Panther Chameleon by Ferguson, Murphy, Ramanamanjato, and Raselimanana
They talk about Vit A supplementation and how they deal with loading insects and at what level to do so recommending that the panther chameleon receive a chronic dose of 5-10 IU a day. However, two other things struck me within confines of this discussion.

First "A diet containing carotenoids but not vitamin A does not seem to be effective at preventing vitamin A deficiency symptoms in panther chameleons."

Second "If vitamin A deficiency appears (for example, when old diet containing degraded vitamin A is used), it can be corrected with a single dose of 4000-8000 IU of vitamin A suspended in corn oil administered orally."

That seems to be a lot of vitamin A, however, is it possible that a bolus is need to correct such a chronic development of a deficiency?

If you are interested in the read it is on page 78