The Chameleon Community Makes No Progress...

[summoner12]

I was not in any way implying I knew even close to everything about even one species of chameleons. But I was just saying that it would be reassuring to all of us that if before someone purchased a cham they filled out a thing. That asked what the reccomended basking temps or cage size or lighting and diet and like somethin abput suppliments. Just so that like if they didn't know the stuff they would be motivated by that to do some research, and then come back and buy the cham. Just an idea/opinion. Plus a car isn't the same as a cham, chameleons are alive and can have problems/ die a lot easier than a car

The point of the analogy is to show that industry can't move forward with stringent restrictions.

I was not implying you claim to know everything. I wasn't addressing you, I was addressing anyone who feels they might 'know it all'.

 

[chamzilla91]

Well you state what's on your mind which is good. But live animal compared to a vehicle are different. I mean a ten cent copy of a care sheet and a chance the reptile will have a more informed owner is a no brainer to me JMO

 

[Brad]

I personally believe the species database, as currently envisioned, would go a long way towards improving upon some of the problems listed in this thread. If anyone would like to suggest features or offer help please visit the link below.

Species Database Development

 

[summoner12]

I was too. I would have loved to have been given a care sheet and references to site when I first got my chameleon though. I mean, I'm sure there are some reptile owners that just think the pet store's advice is 100% on and don't worry about researching. And on a side note, it would actually be nice if I got all the info on upkeeping a car and how to care for it when I purchase one

The owners manual that comes with your car will tell you the interval of service on the major components... such as rotating tires, pressures, engine/trans oil changes, coolant changes, belt changes.....

I love it all but especially the last part.
We just have to be here for when the next confused keeper arrives and needs help. I WAS one of those confused keepers

It is how this place keeps moving.... luckily it's more solid than someone's passed on verbal advice, because here information is captured in text and can be referenced repeatedly.

You will find that when there is a reptile show that the show producers request that vendors have care sheets provided for the animals they are selling. And with the chameleon vendors on the west coast, most of whom I know personally, will answer all of your questions. Some vendors even ask local members of this forum to hang out at the booth to help assist first time and even repeat customers with husbandry info. That is how I got started with shows...

We all start somewhere. The community keeps things moving.

 

[sdheli420]

when i was a begginner it sucked..i was given horrible advice..did everything (at the time, i thought at least) and had minimal sucsess..i wised up after my first bad experience and didnt buy another cham untill i read everything i could, looked at every setup i could find and slowly learned what a healthy non-stressed chameleon looked like content in his/her surroundings..learned that they are very different from any other lizard you can find..and had sucsess after much preperation..years later (apporx 14) i have still yet to learn it all and love to hear from my peers on their specific experiments/knowledge/techniques...i wish it was a perfect world..but just like streetbikes..some people just arent cut out for that much responsibility and focus with control..

great post btw!!!

 

[Mario Vermunt]

I fully agree with the initial statement(s).

It is important to have multiple males/females of one species to increase chances of succes.
Working with wild caughts, to my own opinion it is important to shower them a lot when acquired, preventive threat them for flagellates and worms in that order. That will minimize losses.

Having a (bloodline)database is nice to have, but for sure not the biggest problem there is.(are)

I find it a pitty the adcham site is down, i found it to be a good reference always, i hope it gets online again.

Every species is really different, and has it own problems.

 

[CNorton]

Having a (bloodline)database is nice to have, but for sure not the biggest problem there is.(are)

I find it a pitty the adcham site is down, i found it to be a good reference always, i hope it gets online again.

Every species is really different, and has it own problems.

I agree Mario. We could really help one another too, if we agreed to share.

This is an issue that I've spent many hours thinking about. Once the kind of species specific information has been learned with some depth, we've got to share that with others in a constructive manner. Thread after thread of off-topic or not detailed enough discussion can quickly fatigue searchers. How many threads have you read and thought "Wow the title for this thread is completely misleading" or "I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread because I wouldn't have known this info was going to be in here."

I believe there are solutions that can be integrated into this forum. For those interested, please take a look at this thread and DON'T just read the last page.

 

[Montium]

This I think is a big factor in our dissemination of knowledge is the amount of long term keepers is extremely tiny. There is a small handful of people on here that have more than 5 years experience with chameleons outside of Veileds and Panthers. Most get into the hobby because it's cool, keep some animals for a few years and then the novelty wears off and they move on. Some do attempt breeding the common species but find it too hard to sell them and too expensive to do it again and this further alienates them from the positive aspects of this hobby and are gone. These new people aren't interested in esoteric musings on seasonal cycling of montane chameleons unless they stick with the hobby long term.

Without getting into a discussion about the negative aspects of this hobby (I mean is there as much petty jealousy, back stabbing and drama in say the knitting community?) those conditions do drive these few experienced keepers into private lists, personal emails or phone calls to avoid the common babble and the sometimes prolific off topic banter on a forum such as this. (No offense Brad!) I'm guilty of it. I would love to see more threads and discussions in the advanced topics section beyond a few photo threads of rare species. What's stopping us?

Anyways, if I had a dime for every time I saw someone enter the hobby, get bitten by the chameleon bug and think they will become the next big thing breeder of rare species x, heck, I wouldn't be keeping bitaeniatus in cages in my apartment, I'd be living in Tanzania and studying them in the wild.

Yes, pretty much wherever there is a forum there is a feud.

As for Benny's thoughts, he's pretty much right on the money. The problem with the average US keeper is they are not going to spend the vet money it takes to get wild caught chams, that go for $100 or less, clean of parasites. Not when they can either go buy another one or just give up.

With the prices being generally higher in Europe it think it tends to weed out the impulse buyers from the serious collector/breeders. imo

 

[chameleongirl2]

totally agree with all ur points

 

[bigben2057]

I do no know what would be wrong with the information provided below from a chain store not saying i purchased one from one or have a vield cham(petsmart)

Handling
Give your pet 3-4 days to adjust to his new home, then try holding him for short amounts of time -- only.

Environment
They come from a forest environment and need a home with lots of climbing branches.

Calcium dust
"Dust" the insects with a calcium supplement twice a week - ask a PetSmart associate for details.

Feeding amounts & frequency
Feed juveniles 1-2 times a day; adults daily or every other day. Offer an amount that can be consumed by the end of the day.

Water
Mist four times daily or as needed to maintain the recommended hunidity level as well as allow the chameleon to drink.

Housing
Use a well-ventilated screen home -- the taller the better, as chameleons love to climb.

Climbing
Add a live tree and/or plant (a ficus or pothos works well), plus plenty of artificial reptile branches to create climbing areas.

 

[Helios]

For like 6 months I have been thinking that like when you order a cham when you enter your info ect. They should make you fill out a questionaire thing about the husbandry of that reptile and youd have to pass the test 100% to be able to proceed to checkout. It would leave mostly dedicated or experienced owners or first time buyers so that there would be so much mistakes in the care. Sorry if this is like dumb to all of you, it has just been on my mind whenever I see people making mistakes in their husbandry and stuff

Hey I think people should have to take psych tests in order to have kids so your not too far off. Look this is probably a pointless post since this is more of an advanced discussion but this basically happens with anything new people are crazy about and know very little read the book the orchid thief and you get what I mean how many species have gone extinct of plants and animals thanks to our ignorance in the name of science? Mistreating a Cham is no different than mistreating a dog or cat people still do it and they always will some people suck it's how it is personally I researched for almost 3 months everything I could learn about panther Chams just so when I got mine they wouldn't be mistreated but I'm smart enough to know my limits and I don't plan on getting any new species because I don't have the time or money for anything rare and new. But if you want to be disappointed be mad at people all together you would think by now things would change but they really don't all that much you want things to change start writing some books on proper care techniques lord knows there aren't enough of them.

Also my country can beat up your country

 

[wendyeeeo]

Very well said! It is unfortunate there is so much MISinformation out there to discourage new chameleon keepers and/or lead them to an unsuccessful outcome with a new cham. I began that very way, after getting my son a Jackson's before knowing anything about them...and trusting the pet store to tell me how to care for it. Being an animal enthusiast and a teacher, I educated myself. Ended up falling in love with these reptiles then took my time learning until it got easier...but it's still an ongoing learning process. I don't know a lot of people willing to invest all the effort and time, let alone money into keeping a "lizard." (of course I find chams to be almost magical) I am so grateful for this forum!! I've learned 99% of what I needed RIGHT HERE - made connections and then made better choices. I hope the right information starts to infiltrate all these sad petstore scenarios that break our hearts... I try to support as many things as I can which contribute to an improved knowledge base of chameleon care (this forum, sharing info whenever possible, animal rescue organizations, and EDUCATING MY MIDDLE SCHOOL STUDENTS!!!).

 

[kinyonga]

Since I first started keeping chameleons there has been some progress but not as much as I would have expected. A year or so after I got my first chameleon I was asked..."why did you buy a chameleon...they only live a couple of weeks in captivity?...You have to do this and this, etc. and they still die". I suggested that since I'd had mine for a year already, maybe they should ask how I kept them. Not long after that, a zookeeper from the SW States came to my house and saw that I kept coneheads, helmeted iguanas and uromastyx. He said I must have only had them for a couple of weeks because they were hard to keep and that they needed this and that, etc. I told him that they had all been with me for over a year and that maybe he should ask me how I kept them since I'd had them that long. He laughed and agreed!

I did get WC's for a long time since that was all that was available...some did well through luck that I set them up well enough that they survived. Others died...some being too sick or too old to survive and others I certainly killed with my lack of experience.

All this led me to decide to tell everyone who wanted to know, how I kept various species and what I did to hatch the eggs, etc. It made sense to me to help people so that they wouldn't lose the animals like I had.

Back to the initial point of the thread...progressing in the chameleon world...
It would definitely be good to see more species of chameleons being kept with better success in the future...and it would definitely help us accomplish this IMHO if there is a data base, with a list of people with experience with various species, that could be looked to for guidance on keeping those species. IMHO sharing experience and information will help us all move forward in keeping/breeding/hatching more species of chameleons and the ones we already keep.

Also...I would not like to see the WC's become totally unavailable since IMHO they are needed to keep the lines going properly.

 

[CNorton]

I know I for one have really struggled to be bring Kinyongia matschiei to US captive care. Despite years without any imports of new blood I was somehow able to hatch and raise 3 clutches of these babies. Without focusing on this species, I don't think I would have even gotten that far. By trial and error and closely monitoring temps and humidity I was able to approximate wild conditions. The most helpful information source? An old trial guide for the Amani Nature Reserve where I studied rainfall, humidity, and temperatures throughout the seasons.



Maybe there's a few of us that might have new insight on this topic. Please share!

 

[Meow Kitty]

i ethically will never buy W/c as i feel its pretty cruel.

 

[lysinlight87]

I'm a conservationist, always have been & always will be...I hate the idea of animals being taken from the wild & being imported elsewhere...but at the same time, I must be honest & admit that I feel the pull of the different species available, an "oh, that's cool, I want one!" reaction, if you like.

But for my own peace of mind, my chams are captive bred. Their ancestors may have been WC, but they were born captive & I feel better for that. I'm so glad I checked here before buying my carpet baby. There was one in the pet shop, & it turns out it was most likely WC, I thought imports were banned already. I found a carpet breeder & supported their project by buying one of their young.

I think animals taken from the wild should become part of a captive breeding project rather than continuously taking them from the wild to become individuals in someone's collection- that will decimate their wild population. Taking individuals to enhance a breeding program is different from taking individuals purely for the pet trade- where they may well wind up in a pet shop being poorly cared for.

*adorns body armour & hides under table*