The High Prices of The New Madagascar Quotas Chameleon Species?

Thanks for posting the links. That was as I stated in the material you provided. When crocodile eggs are removed form the wild for crocodile farming. Those are considered ranched specimens. Something similar could is possible for longer lived Calumma and Furcifer species.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

The definition of "ranched" is related to, if I interpreted their gobblety-gook correctily, a CITES I species taken from the wild the species reclassified as CITES II. There is a HUGE difference between exporting/importing CITES I and CITES II . (CITES I being the most controlled.) The idea is that if you are farming a CITES I species, you can sustain the wild population and legally export the product, such as crocodile skins. It should apply to chameleons very well, but I don't know if any chameleons are listed as CITES I. That's the catch--ranching is related to CITES I animals.

Here's the CITES definition of Ranching:
"a) the term ‘ranching’ means the rearing in a controlled environment of animals taken as eggs or juveniles from the wild, where they would otherwise have had a very low probability of surviving to adulthood;"

CITES only affects international trade (crossing international borders). What happens inside a country's borders is not governed by CITES (which is the Convention of International Trade of Endangeres Species.

The US goes a bit further and declares some species "Endangered." Then, you can't even sell them across state borders. They will be putting one of my parrots on this list and I don't quite know how it will affect me, especially if I ever return to Canada or even move out of my state. There is a lot of politics involved and some of it doesn't make any sense from a conservation stand point.

Just know if you are ever dealing with US Fish and Wildlife, they are not necessarily sensible. Nor do they know their OWN regulations.

I had one official in Washington tell me that under no circumstances could I import an ivory piece that was made out of Indian elephant ivory. She sent me a link to the brochure that explained it all. Except right there in her own brochure, was the conditions that Indian elephant ivory could be imported.

Another time, I brought out of Saudi Arabia a wild caught Umbrella cockatoo (CITES II). Saudi Arabia brings in a lot of mostly illegal wild caughts. This bird had been the pet of a British couple who moved to the US and ended up leaving the bird with my avian vet because the paperwork and quarantine was not possible. Every summer I went back and forth between Canada and the Kingdom with my parrots so got to know the CITES Manager who did my paperwork. Every time I went in to see him, I always brought up this cockatoo--why wouldn't he just give them the paperwork because withholding it wasn't going to stop the illegal trade since this bird was already here. Finally when I left on exit-only, I asked him if he would give me the paperwork for the cockatoo and he did. I quarantined him in Canada and then got all the paperwork to bring him into the US to reunite him with his owners. I called US Fish and Wildlife repeatedly, asking if I had all the documents I needed. I drove the bird across the border, had him inspected by everyone who was to inspect him (every inspection/permit costs fees, of course) and then flew him off to his owners.

Four months later I moved to the US. I called and double checked I had everything in order for bringing my own birds across the same border using the same US Fish and Wildlife office. All good. Two days before I was to fly to the US Virgin Islands, lo and behold, suddenly I needed a Wild Bird Conservation Act permit. I mean, why didn't they tell me that before???? It's their own darn permit!!! They didn't tell me about it because they didn't know the permits their own office required! Fortunately they didn't know they needed it for the cockatoo because he couldn't ever get it as a wild caught.

The last time I dealt with them the inspector manhandled a very delicately carved antique ivory sculpture. I was furious--I had to take it out of his hands before he broke it. At least he put on the gloves I gave him to wear.

I just hate dealing with them. Does it show?
 
The definition of "ranched" is related to, if I interpreted their gobblety-gook correctily, a CITES I species taken from the wild the species reclassified as CITES II. There is a HUGE difference between exporting/importing CITES I and CITES II . (CITES I being the most controlled.) The idea is that if you are farming a CITES I species, you can sustain the wild population and legally export the product, such as crocodile skins. It should apply to chameleons very well, but I don't know if any chameleons are listed as CITES I. That's the catch--ranching is related to CITES I animals.

Here's the CITES definition of Ranching:
"a) the term ‘ranching’ means the rearing in a controlled environment of animals taken as eggs or juveniles from the wild, where they would otherwise have had a very low probability of surviving to adulthood;"

CITES only affects international trade (crossing international borders). What happens inside a country's borders is not governed by CITES (which is the Convention of International Trade of Endangeres Species.

The US goes a bit further and declares some species "Endangered." Then, you can't even sell them across state borders. They will be putting one of my parrots on this list and I don't quite know how it will affect me, especially if I ever return to Canada or even move out of my state. There is a lot of politics involved and some of it doesn't make any sense from a conservation stand point.

Just know if you are ever dealing with US Fish and Wildlife, they are not necessarily sensible. Nor do they know their OWN regulations.

I had one official in Washington tell me that under no circumstances could I import an ivory piece that was made out of Indian elephant ivory. She sent me a link to the brochure that explained it all. Except right there in her own brochure, was the conditions that Indian elephant ivory could be imported.

Another time, I brought out of Saudi Arabia a wild caught Umbrella cockatoo (CITES II). Saudi Arabia brings in a lot of mostly illegal wild caughts. This bird had been the pet of a British couple who moved to the US and ended up leaving the bird with my avian vet because the paperwork and quarantine was not possible. Every summer I went back and forth between Canada and the Kingdom with my parrots so got to know the CITES Manager who did my paperwork. Every time I went in to see him, I always brought up this cockatoo--why wouldn't he just give them the paperwork because withholding it wasn't going to stop the illegal trade since this bird was already here. Finally when I left on exit-only, I asked him if he would give me the paperwork for the cockatoo and he did. I quarantined him in Canada and then got all the paperwork to bring him into the US to reunite him with his owners. I called US Fish and Wildlife repeatedly, asking if I had all the documents I needed. I drove the bird across the border, had him inspected by everyone who was to inspect him (every inspection/permit costs fees, of course) and then flew him off to his owners.

Four months later I moved to the US. I called and double checked I had everything in order for bringing my own birds across the same border using the same US Fish and Wildlife office. All good. Two days before I was to fly to the US Virgin Islands, lo and behold, suddenly I needed a Wild Bird Conservation Act permit. I mean, why didn't they tell me that before???? It's their own darn permit!!! They didn't tell me about it because they didn't know the permits their own office required! Fortunately they didn't know they needed it for the cockatoo because he couldn't ever get it as a wild caught.

The last time I dealt with them the inspector manhandled a very delicately carved antique ivory sculpture. I was furious--I had to take it out of his hands before he broke it. At least he put on the gloves I gave him to wear.

I just hate dealing with them. Does it show?

Jean Pierre

I hear about these problems a lot. However an institution has been built on Endangered species here in the USA. They created jobs, provides recreation and hobbies, entertainment, academic and scientific resources on a level that most of the old world does not have or in the past did not have. The problems I hear or concern me the most especially with my Agriculture degree are conflicts going on between Agriculture and Conservation Biology especially here in the states. About five years ago Fish and Game seized a farmers farm for plowing under an endangered Kangeroo Rat. The US Government is a strange entity at times. USA prizes native endangered species is why Fish and Game seems reluctant to move other endangered species from state to state. Moving foreign endangered species goes against the endangered species establishment (native and Pristine approach) that has been built in the USA. That is why good protocol has to be established if it is going to happen or be considered at all. The US Agricultural Department would not even allow me to ship Schistocerca grasshoppers to states that they were listed as naturally occurring in? However it has been decided that everyone in the USA wants both exotic species and endangered species to recover in their naturally occurring ranges. That makes this a complicate problem however if you can make Agriculture/Wildlife Trade/Conservation Biology/Endangers Species Recovery/ Public Relations/Entertainment happen then you have earned your healthy paycheck/job.


Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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Isn't that standard practice when dealing with "pest species"?

That is what I am saying they should be considered a native pest species they are native to the area that they are being transported too. They just may occur in that area in to of a low densities to collect. Bringing in invasive species to native environments is normally not allowed most of the times (especially California policies) from my understanding. Except if they are an established feeder insect in the USA most all of which happen to be invasive species ironically. However bringing in native species to other environments that they are native too from my understanding should be okay just as long as they are being monitored and regulated (appropriate permits etc..). However even then these permits to species in there native environments were not allowed and that is why I only sell Schistocerca to California residents during good years. I am still working on it.

House Crickets Acheta domesticus are native too South West Asia
Dubia Roaches Blaptica dubia are native too Central and South America
Mealworms Tenebrio molitor are native too the Mediterranean Region
Silk Worms Bombax mori are native too Asia

Ironically populations of invasive species House Crickets have been found through out the state of California. Legalizing native insects as feeder insects would stop the spread of invasive insects in native environments.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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As expected the prices have begun to drop from the high start prices for these new Madagascar species. The prices are high and should stay high. However for Furcifer antimena for example lone specimens were originally selling for $1000.00 US Dollars a pieces. Today on Kingsnake Classifieds they are now being sold at a more humble price however a worthy high price of $1000.00 US Dollars a pair. That price should probably stay about that.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
Another drop in price Calumma nasutum starting price was at $500.00 a piece and is now selling for $300.00 a pair. I am good with the price of Calumma nasutum staying around $150.00 or $300.00 a pair with the highest a quota of 1000. However I am for the higher prices as it is going to slow the export of these chameleons and (in theory) send money back to the Malagasy forest (to collectors and I have got my digits crossed forest conservation too) that these chameleons are collected from. With higher prices there is greater prospects that finances from chameleon sales are going to be returned to forest conservation.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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Always the dreamer Jeremy. You must be dreaming if you think any of the money most of the thieves over there are making goes back into anything conservation related.

Carl
 
Always the dreamer Jeremy. You must be dreaming if you think any of the money most of the thieves over there are making goes back into anything conservation related.

Carl

I would be so happy to say you are wrong,but I know you are dead on.:mad:
 
Always the dreamer Jeremy. You must be dreaming if you think any of the money most of the thieves over there are making goes back into anything conservation related.

Carl

I would be so happy to say you are wrong,but I know you are dead on.:mad:

I am actually a bit more than just a dreamer. Have you ever heard the quote from the movie Prometheus, "Big things have Small Beginnings"? Being fortunate enough of being raised in a family of developers. I am actually more competent as to what could and most probably won't happen. The people at Turtle Island And Watershed Network and Salmon Protection And Watershed Network both working with the conservation of endangered species said the idea of sending sales money or money from the hobby back to conservation had some prospects and showed promise (me as well). Whether that is apparent to you or not Carl is on you. Even if the idea needs to be developed more.

Carl I have got ideals.

$150-$300 a piece is a high price for Calumma nasutum.

Laurie you have owned Furcifer campani a new quota species. Would you want some of the money you spent on those chameleons to be sent to conservation programs in Madagascar?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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Mike I've put more then my share back into the island. Many times over thank you!

Until the day comes that a government is put in place that doesn't think lining their own pockets comes before protecting the islands natural resources the situation will continue. You can make as many protected places as you want. These special places are raped and stolen from on a continual basis just as though there was no special status given.

When you are serious about protecting the peoples island you don't just stand by watching barges being loaded with Rose Wood. You don't let crates of lemurs, chameleons, gecko's, precious stones, or whatever else 1st world countries greedily demand leave without proper permits and inspections. You don't ignore the legal process.

Carl
 
Mike I've put more then my share back into the island. Many times over thank you!

Until the day comes that a government is put in place that doesn't think lining their own pockets comes before protecting the islands natural resources the situation will continue. You can make as many protected places as you want. These special places are raped and stolen from on a continual basis just as though there was no special status given.

When you are serious about protecting the peoples island you don't just stand by watching barges being loaded with Rose Wood. You don't let crates of lemurs, chameleons, gecko's, precious stones, or whatever else 1st world countries greedily demand leave without proper permits and inspections. You don't ignore the legal process.

Carl

Carl

Calling me another name other than my own is beyond sloppy.

You are obviously overwhelmed and on the negative side of things when it comes to the conservation and resource issues that are going on in Madagascar. Before the dictatorship the island was considered by many to be on a path towards recover. With a stable government and continued encouragement/support from foreign conservation groups and other governments to conserve the islands wildlife. There is no reason the island cannot regain that stride or start a similar stride. Just remember accepting defeat is not a solution at all.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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With a stable government and continued encouragement/support from foreign conservation groups and other governments to conserve the islands wildlife. There is no reason the island cannot regain that stride or start a similar stride.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

I'll believe it when I see it. Not before
 
Ralph

You do not have to believe it. There is plenty of conservation programs to conserve forest going on now. Here is a good one.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/weforest-madagascar-chameleon-habitat-conservation-130360/

Madagascar has got such a wealth of specifically evolved forests that they require more conservation. If you want to keep all of these species of chameleons around for now and the future conservation programs of these forest is what is required.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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Carl

Calling me another name other than my own is beyond sloppy.

You are obviously overwhelmed and on the negative side of things when it comes to the conservation and resource issues that are going on in Madagascar. Before the dictatorship the island was considered by many to be on a path towards recover. With a stable government and continued encouragement/support from foreign conservation groups and other governments to conserve the islands wildlife. There is no reason the island cannot regain that stride or start a similar stride. Just remember accepting defeat is not a solution at all.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Well the thing about newly formed countries is, they're not stable. It would be absolutely naive to completely ignore not only that fact, but the fact that pretty much every country exploits their natural resources because why, the money. I mean they have a newly formed constitution (2010) and the country is only 45 years old.

Yes it is good to hope and wish that they will actually conserve the environment, but honestly like Carl said, it has to start with getting a government that is not worried about making a buck

Chase
 
Well the thing about newly formed countries is, they're not stable. It would be absolutely naive to completely ignore not only that fact, but the fact that pretty much every country exploits their natural resources because why, the money. I mean they have a newly formed constitution (2010) and the country is only 45 years old.

Yes it is good to hope and wish that they will actually conserve the environment, but honestly like Carl said, it has to start with getting a government that is not worried about making a buck

Chase

Chase

It is called Resource Management and all modern countries have a programs that attempts to best/most effectively manage their resources. I spent 6 years at UC Davis studying and earned a degree (B.Sc. Agricultural Management and Rangeland Resources) about this topic. If a developing nation does not attempt to manage their resources they are going to be left behind the curve as an underdeveloped country with resource management problems. Saying Madagascar should not strive for modern resource management goals because they are a young country is similar to saying to a 4 year old they should never expect to go to school, have a job, own a car, and own a house because they are young?!?! Chance prefers the prepared even if you are young.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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Chase

It is called Resource Management and all modern countries have a programs that attempts to best/most effectively manage their resources. I spent 6 years at UC Davis studying and earned a degree (B.Sc. Agricultural Management and Rangeland Resources) about this topic. If a developing nation does not attempt to manage their resources they are going to be left behind the curve as an underdeveloped country with resource management problems. Saying Madagascar should not strive for modern resource management goals because they are a young country is similar to saying to a 4 year old they should never expect to go to school, have a job, own a car, and own a house because they are young?!?! Chance prefers the prepared even if you are young.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

No where did I say they shouldn't be trying to conserve. My point that I made to discuss against your point was the fact that you named it a stable government when it is such a newly formed country. You may have a degree about resource management, but I study political science and my post was addressing the sole point that you cannot consider it stable when there was a coup de'tat in their recent history, a fallen monarchy, independence from another country, etc. And I'm not sure about you, but I'd say that Madagascar is developed or underdeveloped, considering the main source of their wealth is their resource exportation.

As I said before, most countries will exploit their natural resources. In the case of Madagascar, I would say they have what is called the resource curse. This is where they will export more because they have the resources. To them they have an island full of money.

In order for Madagascar to actually have a chance at developing and getting away from acting like a colony still (exporting as much as they can to get money), they'd need to industrialize, just like every other developed country.

Chase
 
Jeremy I think I always call you Mike because you remind of someone named Mike at work. He is always talking out of his *** and tries to look and sound professional but we all know the truth.

Carl
 
Well the thing about newly formed countries is, they're not stable. It would be absolutely naive to completely ignore not only that fact, but the fact that pretty much every country exploits their natural resources because why, the money. I mean they have a newly formed constitution (2010) and the country is only 45 years old.

Yes it is good to hope and wish that they will actually conserve the environment, but honestly like Carl said, it has to start with getting a government that is not worried about making a buck

Chase

No where did I say they shouldn't be trying to conserve. My point that I made to discuss against your point was the fact that you named it a stable government when it is such a newly formed country. You may have a degree about resource management, but I study political science and my post was addressing the sole point that you cannot consider it stable when there was a coup de'tat in their recent history, a fallen monarchy, independence from another country, etc. And I'm not sure about you, but I'd say that Madagascar is developed or underdeveloped, considering the main source of their wealth is their resource exportation.

As I said before, most countries will exploit their natural resources. In the case of Madagascar, I would say they have what is called the resource curse. This is where they will export more because they have the resources. To them they have an island full of money.

In order for Madagascar to actually have a chance at developing and getting away from acting like a colony still (exporting as much as they can to get money), they'd need to industrialize, just like every other developed country.

Chase

Chase

Your last statement in the first quote sounds as though you are saying they should not and are not even going to come close to conserving their wildlife resources. Madagascar receives huge amounts for foreign aid specifically to conserve their wildlife resources. They are not solely dependent on resource extraction industry. Much of the agriculture and forestry can be done sustainably (much more than slash and burn agriculture) meaning it does not have to be resource exploitation.

You say developed or underdeveloped? Which 1/one is it? According to you then Madagascar was never a stable country even before the coup? Then after that you say you are by no means saying they should not conserve? You then say they are not going to conserve their wild resources when Madagascar receives huge amounts of foreign aid for that purpose?

I am calling Madagascar a stable government based on the detail that the country is not under a dictatorship. However that newly formed Madagascar government during the period before the coup (2009) was making progress about conservation issues (was considered on a path to becoming a conservation accomplishment). Now that there is a newly formed Democratic government again why cannot that government make similar strides again? 2009 to 2013 only 4 years is not that long of a coup. Madagascar is a developing country that is in the worlds eye and receives huge amounts of foreign aid. I think if the government stays intact Madagascar is a country that can recover grow.

Your logic is flawed for resource management to happen programs have got to have some source of income/revenue to make the programs operate. Just like any business if they cannot pay for there expenses the business won't operate or work on just hopes and dreams (unless they have got a financial contributor). Madagascar has shown that the country was capable of doing this with Foreign Aid, Ecotourism, Biological Research, Wildlife Conservation, some trade for the herp hobby and other endeavors. Madagascar hit a speed bump in the road with the coup. There is no reason the country cannot recuperate to smooth or improved driving after the speed bump. There are many species of chameleons you cannot legally buy that you can look forward to looking for in the wild in a Eco Tourism Trip to Madagascar. Support Madagascar Eco Tourism and conservation of protected parks and preserves that have got the species of chameleons that are beloved by Chameleon Forums members. It helps conserve wildlife resources and is one of those Eco industries that you are overlooking Chase.

Jeremy I think I always call you Mike because you remind of someone named Mike at work. He is always talking out of his *** and tries to look and sound professional but we all know the truth.

Carl

I have produced documented results other than topics on this Forums. Look after critiquing no new Madagascar CITES quota species after no new species for 17 years. There are new quota species now. Back off!! There are always some naysayers:D.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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[/QUOTE]I have produced documented results other than topics on this Forums. Look after critiquing no new Madagascar CITES quota species after no new species for 17 years. There are new quota species now. Back off!! There are always some naysayers:D.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich[/QUOTE]

Just curious. Are you saying you should be credited and are the one to thank for the new Madagascan quota species we've had available as of late?
 
I have produced documented results other than topics on this Forums. Look after critiquing no new Madagascar CITES quota species after no new species for 17 years. There are new quota species now. Back off!! There are always some naysayers:D.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Just curious. Are you saying you should be credited and are the one to thank for the new Madagascan quota species we've had available as of late?

Not totally. I am saying with my thread and that it is found on Google Search for CITES quotas. Then after two years of me posting my own opinion alone and no replies with my degree/major at the time, UC Davis being the top Agriculture school in the nation and my experience with chameleons someone with CITES or someone connected here with CITES was listening. Whomever figured I had a good point/good idea to add some new Madagascar quota species after none for 17 years. Started 2010 and first response was 2012 and first new quota species was 2012 Furcifer campani. Why not have a look?

https://www.chameleonforums.com/if-there-were-new-cites-species-quotas-40252/

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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