The High Prices of The New Madagascar Quotas Chameleon Species?

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Howdy Everyone

This thread is a thread to hear what everyone's review about the high prices of the new Madagascar quota species is?

I think they are good and that the high prices (along with CITES Quotas, IUCN Red List and Continued Madagascar Forest Conservation in the form of National Parks and Preserves) are going to stop the Mass Exodus syndrome that was happening from before the 1995 ban from happening again. These high prices for these imports are not going to bring back the dime a dozen price range and then reselling of these chameleons for a cheap quick profit. Which would only contribute to excessive exports along with many of these chameleon species ending up in inexperienced hands and dying soon after being purchased. As many of these advanced level chameleons would end up going to inexperienced hands and dying soon after as well documented before the 1995 CITES ban.

As well I think many of these high prices are going to make prospect buyers seriously consider what species they are buying when considering buying these chameleons. Where as before 1995 this was a huge problem as people easily had the opportunity to buy an advanced level chameleons for a first or second chameleon (personnel observation). These high prices should solve that problem and make it so that these species with more specific requirements go to experienced keepers and stay out of inexperienced hands.

On a couple levels ( to slow export, to keep advanced level chameleons out of inexperienced keepers hands who may not be ready for a chameleon that requires advanced requirements, and reward to keepers that actually breed these advanced level chameleons) I think these prices are good.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Kent67]

Good or bad, the high prices are to be expected but I don't think they'll remain as high as they currently are indefinitely. They're still wild-caught chameleons from Madagascar that are just as much risk as and go through the same capture-hold-transport-hold-transport-etc. routine as the 4 species that haven't been suspended for 20 years. There will be losses. And when word gets out that people have spent thousands on chameleons that have died shortly after arrival, it will become more difficult to justify those prices in the long run. The animals in the first shipment looked phenomenal but let's not forget we're still talking about wc from Madagascar. Personally, I couldn't justify the high prices on some of those naturally short-lived species. Also, consider this: Furcifer campani has been legally traded for the last couple years. Their quota is 250 annually and they go for about $200 each, right? Calumma malthe has a quota of 500 but they're $1800 a pair. Small species, Calumma nasutum, quota is 1000 per year. How much are they going for compared to F. campani?

Having said that, I am horribly depressed that all these Madagascar species I haven't seen in 20 years, Uganda (xenorhina. Aaaaaaa), and Cameroon have all come in right before Christmas when I'm broke!

 

[Chase]

Just a thought... Just because you have money, doesn't mean you're experienced or will correctly care for the animal. I do agree, having a high price helps for the newer keepers from buying them, but there are rich idiots too.

I too am disappointed Kent that I don't have the money to work with these species, but hey, hopefully one day. I could see these prices on captive produced stuff, but like Kent said, it's just as much risk as buying a $20 senegalenis

Chase

 

[junglefries]

Pros and cons to almost every situation and/or purchase. Even the brokest of people might possess the knowledge to raise and breed these successfully. However, the high prices will hopefully only encourage the confident in trying. Last year, despite having great success with panthers over recent years, I decided against a Valhala pair from Biffle. I didn't want to risk my overconfidence vs someone who knows more than me, with such a needed captive bred species. Hopefully, all will work out for these newcomers and the ones in their homeland can benefit in the long run.

 

[Mike Fisher]

The market determines the price. As long as people are willing to pay high prices as soon as they hit the US soil, that's where they will stay. At the point these sit at the importers unsold and mortality sets in, prices will come down.

 

[Vegas Chad]

Good or bad, the high prices are to be expected but I don't think they'll remain as high as they currently are indefinitely. They're still wild-caught chameleons from Madagascar that are just as much risk as and go through the same capture-hold-transport-hold-transport-etc. routine as the 4 species that haven't been suspended for 20 years. There will be losses. And when word gets out that people have spent thousands on chameleons that have died shortly after arrival, it will become more difficult to justify those prices in the long run. The animals in the first shipment looked phenomenal but let's not forget we're still talking about wc from Madagascar. Personally, I couldn't justify the high prices on some of those naturally short-lived species. Also, consider this: Furcifer campani has been legally traded for the last couple years. Their quota is 250 annually and they go for about $200 each, right? Calumma malthe has a quota of 500 but they're $1800 a pair. Small species, Calumma nasutum, quota is 1000 per year. How much are they going for compared to F. campani?

Having said that, I am horribly depressed that all these Madagascar species I haven't seen in 20 years, Uganda (xenorhina. Aaaaaaa), and Cameroon have all come in right before Christmas when I'm broke!

Good points for sure. Cameroon came in? Errrr Why did I not know this?!?!?!

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Good or bad, the high prices are to be expected but I don't think they'll remain as high as they currently are indefinitely. They're still wild-caught chameleons from Madagascar that are just as much risk as and go through the same capture-hold-transport-hold-transport-etc. routine as the 4 species that haven't been suspended for 20 years. There will be losses. And when word gets out that people have spent thousands on chameleons that have died shortly after arrival, it will become more difficult to justify those prices in the long run. The animals in the first shipment looked phenomenal but let's not forget we're still talking about wc from Madagascar. Personally, I couldn't justify the high prices on some of those naturally short-lived species. Also, consider this: Furcifer campani has been legally traded for the last couple years. Their quota is 250 annually and they go for about $200 each, right? Calumma malthe has a quota of 500 but they're $1800 a pair. Small species, Calumma nasutum, quota is 1000 per year. How much are they going for compared to F. campani?

Having said that, I am horribly depressed that all these Madagascar species I haven't seen in 20 years, Uganda (xenorhina. Aaaaaaa), and Cameroon have all come in right before Christmas when I'm broke!

I hear your pain after 20 years plus new a Cameroon shipment etc.. I want to own all of them NOW!!! The importers are paying top dollar for these chameleons too. If these chameleons are coming in is less than ideal condition they are not going to pay top dollar to import these chameleons. That was one of the main problem as to why these chameleon shipments had not arrived earlier in the year. The Malagasy were asking to high of prices for wild caught chameleons. However if these chameleons are coming in in less that optimum condition importers won't buy them and they won't command a solid dollar price. However my guidance to anyone buying these chameleons that cannot pick them out in person is to ask for pictures to be emailed to them as you are paying a high price for these species. Positive note if you breed these species you can ask top dollar over wild caught imports.

The larger long lived species I expect the prices to stay high. I concur with Kent the smaller short live species with higher quotas, such as Calumma nasutum and similar species, I expect the prices to drop a bit.

Just a thought... Just because you have money, doesn't mean you're experienced or will correctly care for the animal. I do agree, having a high price helps for the newer keepers from buying them, but there are rich idiots too.

I too am disappointed Kent that I don't have the money to work with these species, but hey, hopefully one day. I could see these prices on captive produced stuff, but like Kent said, it's just as much risk as buying a $20 senegalenisChase

I would not compare them to Chamaeleo senegalensis that species does not have conservative quotas at all. I think it is likely Kent is going to have his day keeping plenty of these new quota species and opportunity to breed them too, as well as many novice keepers who become advanced keepers.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Chase]

I hear your pain after 20 years plus new a Cameroon shipment etc.. I want to own all of them NOW!!! The importers are paying top dollar for these chameleons too. If these chameleons are coming in is less than ideal condition they are not going to pay top dollar to import these chameleons. That was one of the main problem as to why these chameleon shipments had not arrived earlier in the year. The Malagasy were asking to high of prices for wild caught chameleons. However if these chameleons are coming in in less that optimum condition importers won't buy them and they won't command a solid dollar price. However my guidance to anyone buying these chameleons that cannot pick them out in person is to ask for pictures to be emailed to them as you are paying a high price for these species. Positive note if you breed these species you can ask top dollar over wild caught imports.

The larger long lived species I expect the prices to stay high. I concur with Kent the smaller short live species with higher quotas, such as Calumma nasutum and similar species, I expect the prices to drop a bit.



I would not compare them to Chamaeleo senegalensis that species does not have conservative quotas at all. I think it is likely Kent is going to have his day keeping plenty of these new quota species and opportunity to breed them too, as well as many novice keepers who become advanced keepers.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

I was just using it as an example. Like Kent said, they still are WC, and still have just as much risk as any other species coming in.

Chase

 

[Vegas Chad]

Another thing to consider is the market for the high end chameleons… How many of us are really ready to drop 1000+ on a chameleon that can die for what seems to be no reason? Lets say out of 1000 people 100 are willing to do this. Once all 100 of us have our groups the speed that which they are sold will drop and drop till they move.

A good example of this is some of the leaf tail geckos, when they came in the wholesale price was where the retail price ~should~ be. After 1 week the price was cut by about 15%, the week after that 15%, and then they started to move.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Another thing to consider is the market for the high end chameleons… How many of us are really ready to drop 1000+ on a chameleon that can die for what seems to be no reason? Lets say out of 1000 people 100 are willing to do this. Once all 100 of us have our groups the speed that which they are sold will drop and drop till they move.

A good example of this is some of the leaf tail geckos, when they came in the wholesale price was where the retail price ~should~ be. After 1 week the price was cut by about 15%, the week after that 15%, and then they started to move.

These new quotas species have got price ranges close to wild caught Furcifer pardalis, the cash cows of the of the chameleon world. Something similar is possible with these new Calumma and Furcifer species? If you are a breeder and you are breeding them why you can ask for those higher prices? Captive bred tops the crap shoot of wild caught chameleons. Plus that is keeping chameleons in Madagascar.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[OldChamKeeper]

They are pros and cons to the high prices. No matter the given opinions what is a fact is the prices are not sustainable.

Very few people will spend more than a $1000 on an animal that can die very quickly or for no known reason. I'm not going into examples, the benefit of having a chat with so many other experienced cham keepers here is we've all been there.

My #1 issue is simple, I won't pay $1000+ for a chameleon sight unseen. If I'm going to purchase an animal that can die overnight despite my experience in keeping chams over decades, I'm going to visually inspect it to the best of my ability before handing over a what is to me a big chunk of money.

Having money doesn't mean a person will take better care of a given animal. I personally used Dr. Greek for my animals. His prices are fair. I trust him. I've taken my male Quad to him since March when we found he had that damn bone infection common in Montane species. Is he still alive ( going on 9 months with a bone infection and thriving ) just due to him seeing Dr. Greek? No. It's a combination of a vet who knows his stuff with Chameleons and a keeper with decades of experience in keeping, nurturing, and understanding the needs of these critters. Having money doesn't mean a person is going to buy the best equipment, or even buy the right combination of equipment, or even buy the right dietary supplements, or if they did.... will they use them correctly or overdose their expensive lizard?

Now on the positive side, the higher prices discourage the brand new keeper from buying one on a whim. I personally used to discourage or "steer" new reptile keepers away from the more delicate species over my years in the industry. I know that is not the norm. Many people make an "impulse buy" and a Parson Chameleon is a mighty impressive animal to behold to a new keeper who has never seen one. That fact contributed to many Parson's dying. I used to bring my huge male to the pet store I ran, more so I could have him nearby. He got personal attention from his owner daily that way. However I can't even count how many people wanted to buy him after seeing him, people who had never owned a chameleon before. He contributed to many panther or Jackson chameleons getting sold however.

So, the prices are in themselves useful to helping "throttle" the animals en mass going to the public which would result in many dying if it would be anything like I remember back in the 80's and 90's.

On the other hand the prices are not sustainable.

For some bright spots to point out... Unlike back in the 80's and 90's when the internet did not exist (yes children, there was a time when the internet did not exist. Back then the T-rex was king) we now have a place like this forum where experienced hobbyists and newer keepers mingle and can share info. We also have vets who are able to specialize with reptiles. We also have a huge amount of reptile related products (I still make my own odd inventions however). We even have a much better understanding of their dietary needs and supplements. I still remember using patio misters or paying my dad to spray down my animals........ now we have the Mist King.

Will I be getting back into Parsons? Yes. Will I be paying thousands of dollars for an animal just imported that I have not had the chance to see up close? Hell no. I'd rather pay for a CBB and make sure a hobbyist gets my $$$.The prices will have to come way down before I'll buy animals sight unseen from people I've never met or had lunch with. So ask yourselves how long will prices stay high if experienced keepers like me won't open our wallets under these circumstances. I just got in on the Quad shipment to add some new blood to my project but I'm told the shipment is pretty beat up looking. I'll see them tomorrow with my own eyes. But at least for a few hundred dollars I'll take a chance to enhance my breeding project. I won't take the same chances on something as expensive as an imported Parsons.

My bucket list is short, hatching one clutch of Parsons is near the top of that list.

 

[Kent67]

Will I be getting back into Parsons? Yes. Will I be paying thousands of dollars for an animal just imported that I have not had the chance to see up close? Hell no.....

My bucket list is short, hatching one clutch of Parsons is near the top of that list.

That is a great point and one I didn't think to mention but I am with you 100%. I've purchased animals from the folks selling these new species before. A couple of them have sent us wc panthers that were so unhealthy they didn't make it through the first day (or even several hours with us). If I can't trust them to send healthy panthers, how could I possibly trust them with a $2000 Parsonii I haven't seen in person? With the major west coast importer now out of business, I'm lucky that my I have a business partner in south Florida who will pick out good animals for me. If not, I'd be waiting to see them at shows.

For the last quarter of a century my bucket list has also included hatching a clutch of parsonii, too. Fingers crossed for both of us....

On the topic of expensive wild caughts, I'm curious about you old-timers' thoughts on the prices of the sporadic Uganda imports. Kinyongia xenorhina has always been one of my favorite chameleons to keep but knowing their history in captivity, I can't even bring myself close to paying current prices for adults of unknown age. Many times I passed by johnstoni retailing for $60. Wish I'd known....

 

[Chase]

On the topic of expensive wild caughts, I'm curious about you old-timers' thoughts on the prices of the sporadic Uganda imports. Kinyongia xenorhina has always been one of my favorite chameleons to keep but knowing their history in captivity, I can't even bring myself close to paying current prices for adults of unknown age. Many times I passed by johnstoni retailing for $60. Wish I'd known....

I am not an old time keeper, but I do agree with you. I almost bit the bullet with the K. xenorhina, but like you, can't bring myself to get them knowing their reputation of how difficult they are to acclimate. I guess though, that's the chance you take with trying to establish any of these animals so that you can have captive produced animals.

Unfortunately, it seems like these cool things always come in when I won't see them in a show so I can't pick them out (my preferred method, line you and OldChamKeeper).

Chase

 

[Olimpia]

I debate the risks of spending $200 on a WC Meller's at a show, I can't imagine spending $900-1,500+ for an individual of whatever species, wild caught, and feel comfortable with that decision. Captive bred, sure, but wild caught which can drop dead within days or weeks for no reason is not something I can justify. It's not about having the money or not (because I'm happy to drop several hundred bucks on camera equipment, or a trip, or whatever) but it just seems like too risky an investment.

I'm sure there are braver people out there than I! Who do want to sink a huge investment into a group of these (taking into account that they will inevitably lose some percent of their stock), and hope that the eventual returns are worth the initial risk, and I wish them the best of luck.

Edit - I'm not being sarcastic, I really do wish other people lots of luck! If you're coming at this from a business proposition I could see the justification, but as a private hobbyist I need to see more value in my purchases. $1,000 gets me a really nice custom set-up for SEVERAL chameleons, or 8-9 WC Meller's, or a new sheltie puppy with shots and spay/neuter included, or a new camera body, etc. But $1,000 on a single WC chameleon? Color me hesitant. The price will certainly deter most keepers, especially inexperienced ones, but I do expect them to drop some as well or the chameleons won't get into the hands of people who have the experience and ability to keep them either.

 

[kameleons jvo]

I debate the risks of spending $200 on a WC Meller's at a show, I can't imagine spending $900-1,500+ for an individual of whatever species, wild caught, and feel comfortable with that decision. Captive bred, sure, but wild caught which can drop dead within days or weeks for no reason is not something I can justify. It's not about having the money or not (because I'm happy to drop several hundred bucks on camera equipment, or a trip, or whatever) but it just seems like too risky an investment.

I'm sure there are braver people out there than I! Who do want to sink a huge investment into a group of these (taking into account that they will inevitably lose some percent of their stock), and hope that the eventual returns are worth the initial risk, and I wish them the best of luck.

I wish i had the same clear view and character as you Olimpia

 

[Todnedo]

Thats alot of money for a lizard of any kind and I sometimes think I'm crazy for investing the thousands I have, but at the same time I feel obligated to buy them so they dont end up as "pets"

 

[Vegas Chad]

These new quotas species have got price ranges close to wild caught Furcifer pardalis, the cash cows of the of the chameleon world. Something similar is possible with these new Calumma and Furcifer species? If you are a breeder and you are breeding them why you can ask for those higher prices? Captive bred tops the crap shoot of wild caught chameleons. Plus that is keeping chameleons in Madagascar.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

What wholesale lists are you looking at?

 

[danscantle]

These prices are exorbitant and will not encourage the rapid development of husbandry regiments that lead to long term (f5 and higher) success for the majority of the hobby. I know the coming months we'll see lots of baby pictures on the forum but not as many as the hobby deserves to see.

But, everyone is entitled to their own decisions/opinions.

 

[Action Jackson]

These prices are exorbitant and will not encourage the rapid development of husbandry regiments that lead to long term (f5 and higher) success for the majority of the hobby. I know the coming months we'll see lots of baby pictures on the forum but not as many as the hobby deserves to see.

But, everyone is entitled to their own decisions/opinions.

Hey, what happened to that big post you just had here? I happened to agree with what you said.

I decided to pass on some of these imports because of the price. I can't see trying to breed any of these new imports with out buying a 1.3 group minimum. Also if one invests what it really takes to get these species (mainly calumma) all the way to offspring, what kind of market is there going to be? Everyone whats a Panther, well almost everyone.

 

[danscantle]

Hey, what happened to that big post you just had here? I happened to agree with what you said.

I felt like I preached too harshly. But yeah, I should have left that: I find it hard to believe the hobby will find long term success unless enough keepers will get large groups (3-5pairs).

And while I revisit this: just do a flickr search or google image search for Madagascar chameleon. There is a reason why everyone who has photographed wildlife in Madagascar has photos of these species: they are common. (Hey, that's also why they are on the export list again).