The Truth about Vit D3 Supplementation (Panthers).

Flux, something for you.....

Environmental temperature In addition
to microbial fermentation, lizards are
dependent on the ambient temperature for
optimal functioning of other physiological
processes, such as thermoregulation,
digestion and vitamin D metabolism.
Many lizard species are shuttling heliotherms and thermoregulate by moving from
the sun to shade/shade to sun. Green
anoles Anolis carolinensis, for example,
use extensive sun basking and may spend
as much as 92% of their time basking in
cooler seasons (Cope et al., 2001). To
facilitate digestion, Green iguanas were
observed to bask first, in order to increase
metabolic function, then eat (at
c. 1100–1600 hours) and then bask again
(Divers, 1995). The efficient conversion of
previtamin D3
to vitamin D3
is an
environmental temperature-dependent
process because the isomerization of previtamin D to vitamin D3
is a thermal process. Previtamin D3
conversion to
vitamin D3
in the skin of Green iguanas
during in vitro incubation required
72 hours at 5˚C compared to 8 hours at
25˚C (Holick et al., 1995).
Click to expand...

http://www2.ville.montreal.qc.ca/biodome/narg/media/ref200806-2.pdf

Some great info about Ca metabolism at this link, though not specific to chameleons. :)

Another worthwhile read...

http://www.chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
 
Thanks guys. Good stuff to consider

I have to disagree with the statement
"However, in green iguanas and giant day geckos and perhaps other basking reptiles dietary vitamin D may not protect against the development of D deficiency"...
Click to expand...

I've raised baby iguanas without uvb up to breeding adults producing nice viable eggs and I've kept and bred grandis without uvb also. One of the iguanas I opened up with veterinary supervision after death and his bones looked fantastic. Tim Tytle I believe has done grandis as well without full spectrum light- probably multi-generations. I've done it with bearded dragons as well (and collard lizards, and probably a few others I'm too lazy to think back on at this time).

Definitely stuff to think about, but still not the whole picture...
 
I have essentially phased out D3 from my supplementing schedule completely, because my guys will take turns living outside in natural sunlight for days at a time all month long, and since sunlight packs something like 7x the UV punch than the commercial UV bulbs (except the megaray ones), only 20 minutes of natural sunlight is already providing more oomph than a couple hours under their bulbs.

On the subject of bloodwork, I think it was one of the owners of ReptileUV that said on another forum that they'd done bloodwork and they said that benefits of a few hours of sunlight could be detected for up to 2 weeks afterwards. I would love to see more bloodwork experiments through as well, it would be really interesting.
 
Olimpia said:
I have essentially phased out D3 from my supplementing schedule completely, because my guys will take turns living outside in natural sunlight for days at a time all month long, and since sunlight packs something like 7x the UV punch than the commercial UV bulbs (except the megaray ones), only 20 minutes of natural sunlight is already providing more oomph than a couple hours under their bulbs.

On the subject of bloodwork, I think it was one of the owners of ReptileUV that said on another forum that they'd done bloodwork and they said that benefits of a few hours of sunlight could be detected for up to 2 weeks afterwards. I would love to see more bloodwork experiments through as well, it would be really interesting.
Click to expand...

Great discussion! Maybe the kernel of this for newbies is to remind them that dusting supplements should be considered "gap-fillers" not daily nutritional requirements. If the chams are not getting exposure to natural light, high feeder variety, correct UV indoors, careful gutloading then dusting is a good idea. Also that less can be better than more. That's the way I have usually managed my supplements and I have not seen any deficiency problems. In fact, the only cham I've lost from what I feel was a nutritional problem was a beautiful cbb fischeri. I suspect over-supplementation (this was before we started realizing that montane chams are so sensitive to them).
 
jojackson said:
Yeah mate, true blue! :D
Tuatara's are really fascinating creatures, I envy your having had such an experience,
these remain sadly, beyond the reach of most civvies, damn shame, they would probably be the ultimate reptile to keep, in terms of challenge.
You would want to be sure your kids and perhaps grandkids shared your interest, since they might well inherit them. :)
Id love to hear more about that sometime. The extinction of tuatara after surviving for so long would truly be a sad day for humanity. Hopefully we can course correct in time
to prevent it, undo our environmental damage and give them half a chance.
Warming climate may well finish them off, if we dont all act.

Henry the tuatara is a dad at 111
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/henry-the-tuatara-is-a-dad-at-111-1516628.html
Click to expand...

Wow that was very intersting they live to be 250 years old!! crazy
 
I have essentially phased out D3 from my supplementing schedule completely, because my guys will take turns living outside in natural sunlight for days at a time all month long, and since sunlight packs something like 7x the UV punch than the commercial UV bulbs (except the megaray ones), only 20 minutes of natural sunlight is already providing more oomph than a couple hours under their bulbs.
Click to expand...

That sounds like the way to do it if your environment is appropriate. Nowadays I keep all my lizards outdoors all summer and never use d3 during those months (early May through early October). I've a growing wish to move where I can keep everything outdoors year-round.

On the subject of bloodwork, I think it was one of the owners of ReptileUV that said on another forum that they'd done bloodwork and they said that benefits of a few hours of sunlight could be detected for up to 2 weeks afterwards. I would love to see more bloodwork experiments through as well, it would be really interesting.
Click to expand...

That is interesting. I would be keen to know how long d3 stays in the system of my lizards after an entire summer outdoors...
 
Last edited:
Going back to the beginning again...RenVet said..."In a nutshell, studies have proven that if your husbandry is sound, and you have a good, reliable and consistent UV-B source available, then the requirement of oral Vit D3 supplementation for your Panthers, is questionable. In my opinion, I am not quite ready to stop supplementing Vit D3 cold turkey, but the need for it is certain controversial, and if the data continues to support this hypothesis, this practice will be one that will be phased out of many programs in the future."...if a small amount of D3 from supplements doesn't hurt the chameleon since it would still be producing any extra that it needed from its exposure to the UVB is there really a reason to stop it? People often take a vitamin pill to ensure that they get what they might be missing in their diet....and we get D3 in some of the food products that we eat/drink....isn't that the same thing.....just a precaution to make sure what is needed is provided?
 
:D a not so surprising claim from Zoomed.....*I'm cynical*

Since most reptile
species are unable to utilize dietary vitamin D3, they must have access to UVB.
Click to expand...

http://zoomed.com/Library/ProductDBFiles/Reptiles and UVB.pdf

Cant find much to support the intake of dietary D3, mostly about how UVB exposure is nessesary to metabolise it (from various folk flogging UVB lighting) :)

Temperature dependance for isomerisation of vitamin D

http://www.pnas.org/content/92/8/3124.full.pdf

This may be worth a read...

Effects of Artificial Ultraviolet Light
Exposure on Reproductive Success
of the Female Panther Chameleon
(Furcifer pardalis) in Captivity

http://www.megaray.co.uk/downloads/artificial-ultraviolet-exposure-chameleon.pdf
 
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