Tongue STILL inaccurate?

Toph00

Toph00

New Member
Chameleon-Ambilobe Panther Hatched May 11, 2011
Handling- Once - twice a week
Suppliments-Repashy Super Foods Calcium Plus (bought from the Kammers)
Water-I have the Big Dripper and a Mist bottle
Feeding-Large dusted crickets gut loaded with Repashy Bug Burger (Also from Kammers)

Cage Info:
Cage type-16x16x20 mesh cage (I know its too small but I am in the process of moving him in to a 2x2x4 asap)
Lighting- 5.0 Reptiglo tube with 18 inch hood
Humidity- 50%+
Heating- heat lamp with a 60w lightbulb
Temp- Stays from 82-65 (day-night)
Plants-a good sized Schefflera covering most of the cage. Also have a large piece of gnarled wood with fake vines drooping throughout the cage.
Placement-on a desk in front of a window about 3 feet above the floor.
Timer-Timer for light and heat lamp to turn on at 9am and off at 9pm

Last time I posted about his inaccuracy, members suggested that I stop feeding him waxworms because they are fatty and give no nutrition. I hand fed him one every day, I have completely cut it out of his diet now. Another suggestion was adding a multivitamin along with the super food calcium plus so I have added Rep-Cal multivitamins. He has showed some improvement but he still shoots a little above his target. It doesnt really affect his eating much cause he will walk up and just munch them. Any input???
 
UVB light is about 5 months old, lookin to replace it soon. I have his heat lamp on the top corner of his cage in a heat lamp for him. I dust the crickets every day with the calcium plus and recently I have added a small dash of the multi vitamin as well. Feeding, I just bumped him up to the large crickets. He went from about 15ish small-medium sized crickets to about 5-6 large crickets. he seems to only eat one every couple of hours. They are quite larger than what he was eating before
 
So you have Herptivite? That is the best reptile multivitamin, in my opinion. Anyway, you're not mixing it with the calcium, are you? As long as you are giving him the multivite on a separate day from the calcium, I'd say just give it time. A vitamin deficiency doesn't go away overnight. Personally, I would give him the Herptivite once every 10-12 days or so, and see how he is in a month. If he's not getting any better then, you may need to get some other opinions and try something else.

I don't remember from the first thread - is taking him to a herp vet not an option? That would, of course, be the best thing to do. :)
 
The suppliment schedule is

Calcium without d3 everyday,
calcium with d3 2x a month,
multivitamins 2x a month.

Don't just put what you missed before in everyday, you could be ODing him for all you know, just stick to the recommended schedules.
 
Toph00 said:
I dust the crickets every day with the calcium plus and recently I have added a small dash of the multi vitamin as well.
Click to expand...

Ah, that's the problem. You can't mix calcium and a multivitamin. The vitamin A and calcium bind together and basically cancel each other out, to my understanding. On his multivitamin day, you need to dust his crickets with the multivitamin instead of calcium. A healthy cham should get multivitamins once or twice a month. For yours, I might suggest multivitamins every 10-12 days for a month or two and see if he improves.
 
KarmaChameleon1337 said:
The suppliment schedule is

Calcium without d3 everyday,
calcium with d3 2x a month,
multivitamins 2x a month.

Don't just put what you missed before in everyday, you could be ODing him for all you know, just stick to the recommended schedules.
Click to expand...

I have to comment... This is not the supplement schedule. This may be a commonly recommended schedule, but it is not the only way to keep a healthy chameleon.

Beyond that, Repashy Calcium Plus (which OP uses) was formulated to replace the need for a schedule. Many keepers are now using it as their only supplement with fantastic results. The Kammers did extensive testing on using it as a sole supplement, and they had great results and now fully endorse the product. See this thread: https://www.chameleonforums.com/repashy-calcium-plus-daily-supplement-69987/

On the other hand, Toph00, I'd still recommend having a multivitamin day in your situation.
 
hinoco1225 said:
I have to comment... This is not the supplement schedule. This may be a commonly recommended schedule, but it is not the only way to keep a healthy chameleon.

Beyond that, Repashy Calcium Plus (which OP uses) was formulated to replace the need for a schedule. Many keepers are now using it as their only supplement with fantastic results. The Kammers did extensive testing on using it as a sole supplement, and they had great results and now fully endorse the product. See this thread: https://www.chameleonforums.com/repashy-calcium-plus-daily-supplement-69987/

On the other hand, Toph00, I'd still recommend having a multivitamin day in your situation.
Click to expand...

If you would notice I said "recommended".
 
If you didn't correct the issues that were making the tongue inaccurate, then go onto a supplement schedule to maintain the chameleon's nutrient balance the tongue would remain inaccurate, wouldn't it?

Here's some information I hope will help you with things like supplements, gutloading, etc....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.
 
hinoco1225 said... "The vitamin A and calcium bind together and basically cancel each other out, to my understanding. On his multivitamin day, you need to dust his crickets with the multivitamin instead of calcium. A healthy cham should get multivitamins once or twice a month. For yours, I might suggest multivitamins every 10-12 days for a month or two and see if he improves. "...
I'd be interested in reading about vitamin A binding with calcium when mixed together....can you post a link to the article that discusses that please?
What is it about the vitamins more often that will correct the tongue issue?
 
hinoco1225 said:
So you have Herptivite? That is the best reptile multivitamin, in my opinion. Anyway, you're not mixing it with the calcium, are you? As long as you are giving him the multivite on a separate day from the calcium, I'd say just give it time. A vitamin deficiency doesn't go away overnight. Personally, I would give him the Herptivite once every 10-12 days or so, and see how he is in a month. If he's not getting any better then, you may need to get some other opinions and try something else.

I don't remember from the first thread - is taking him to a herp vet not an option? That would, of course, be the best thing to do. :)
Click to expand...

This is not a completely true statement. There are many sources that all state that panther chams do not utilize Vit A well when in the form of Beta Carotene which is the only source that is in Herptivite. So if you do not have Retinal in your gut load you will have Vit A problems. This has been confirmed by several books and published papers. An adult panther should be getting the equivalent of 50iu of retinal per day. And can handle a bolus dose of 2000iu per 30 gms in an mineral oil suspension twice in separated by 7 days to treat deficiency.
 
kinyonga said:
hinoco1225 said... "The vitamin A and calcium bind together and basically cancel each other out, to my understanding. On his multivitamin day, you need to dust his crickets with the multivitamin instead of calcium. A healthy cham should get multivitamins once or twice a month. For yours, I might suggest multivitamins every 10-12 days for a month or two and see if he improves. "...
I'd be interested in reading about vitamin A binding with calcium when mixed together....can you post a link to the article that discusses that please?
What is it about the vitamins more often that will correct the tongue issue?
Click to expand...

I am not an expert by any means; that is just information that I have been told and have seen posted here in several places. If I am wrong, please correct me. I feel sure there is some reason that I have been told repeatedly not to mix calcium and multivitamins (other than the ones formulated to work with calcium), but maybe I misunderstood about exactly what that reason is. Kinyonga, I very much respect your knowledge on this subject, so please elaborate.

And about my vitamin recommendation, I have been told that a multivitamin once a week is fine for young chams anyway. And in OP's original thread, the general consensus seemed to believe his cham has some sort of vitamin deficiency. Personally, I'd worry about an OD giving multivitamins weekly for a significant amount of time, but I don't believe that three times over the course of one month would cause any serious problems.

Ok, I just searched to find one post where I remembered reading about multivitamins and calcium canceling each other out. Brad Ramsey said, "Good advice except for the part about mixing vitamin supplements and calcium.
This can neutralize the effects of the supplements and render them rather ineffectual. Keep Calcium and multi vitamin days separate.
Also, calcium with D3 once or twice a week for young chameleons reduced to twice a month after 5 or 6 months. Calcium w/out D3: 3 or 4 times a week can continue throughout the life of the chameleon. Dust VERY lightly and don't dust every insect. Multi vitamins can be offered once a week up tp 6 months old, then reduce to twice a month.
Less IS more.

-Brad" (https://www.chameleonforums.com/veiled-chameleon-casque-8416/)

So now that I go back and read that, he didn't actually say anything about vitamin A specifically, so maybe I imagined that part. I still feel like I have read it somewhere, but of course it may not have been a reliable source.

clarkrw3 said:
This is not a completely true statement. There are many sources that all state that panther chams do not utilize Vit A well when in the form of Beta Carotene which is the only source that is in Herptivite. So if you do not have Retinal in your gut load you will have Vit A problems. This has been confirmed by several books and published papers. An adult panther should be getting the equivalent of 50iu of retinal per day. And can handle a bolus dose of 2000iu per 30 gms in an mineral oil suspension twice in separated by 7 days to treat deficiency.
Click to expand...

I'm just going off the recommendations of Kinyonga among others. I was under the impression that vitamin A in the form of Beta Carotene was better for chameleons to help prevent it from building up in their systems. But like I said, I am still learning. I would love for you to give me the names of the books and papers you know of on the subject.
 
Just to clarify (I hope)...I use Herptivite because it does have beta carotene so the vitamin A (if it is actually converted) produced from it will not build up in the system. This leaves the chameleon's owner more in charge of how much prEfromed vitamin A the chameleon gets because it can be given using a supplement with prEformed vitamin A in it or given straight vitamin A when/if needed.

hinoco1225...it was your mention of vitamin A that concerned me. I agree with keeping the calcium and vitamin days separate.
 
OOOOOHHHHH that makes much more sense now! I always figured gotta feed it to him, why not knock out two birds with one stone!? Now I see that I need to use ONLY multivitamin 1-2 a month. I will for sure try this method out and see how it goes. I just used one shaked and put a pinch of multivitamin in it every couple of days. I'll just use a plastic bag to shake crickets in every so often. THANK YOU ALL for caring and offering advice and knowledge to me :D
 
kinyonga said:
hinoco1225...it was your mention of vitamin A that concerned me. I agree with keeping the calcium and vitamin days separate.
Click to expand...

Ok, I see that I was mistaken about the vitamin A. I guess my brain somehow linked the multivitamin/calcium thing with thinking about oxalic acids in spinach, carrots, etc. binding to calcium and hindering its absorption.

Regardless, can you please tell me why the multivitamins and calcium are not supposed to be used together? I prefer to be able to explain to people why I'm recommending whatever it is I'm recommending. What is it that makes that makes mixing them ineffective?
 
I've been told that calcium can interfere with some nutrients such as iron and trace minerals. Some of the vitamins may interfere with the amount of calcium absorbed...so I've just always given them separately so that there is no problem.
 
hinoco1225 said:
I'm just going off the recommendations of Kinyonga among others. I was under the impression that vitamin A in the form of Beta Carotene was better for chameleons to help prevent it from building up in their systems. But like I said, I am still learning. I would love for you to give me the names of the books and papers you know of on the subject.
Click to expand...

You can start here The Panther Chameleon: Color Variation, Natural History, Conservation, and Captive Management by Gary w Ferguson
I have other papers and sources but would have to do more digging

Here is another source
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/07/vitamin-a-supplement/
 
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