Trioceros wiedersheimi peretti hatchling

[Chris Anderson]

I'm quite impressed with your breeding successes, Tom. Keep up the good work.

Yes, those are subadults Congrats !
@ some guys: This thread is one of the examples why the chameleon keeping in Europe is ahead the level in the US

Really? Are there that many people with baby T. peretti in Europe right now?

I have to agree with where Kent is going with this one, Benny. While Tom's successes are impressive and in no way do I mean to take away from his accomplishments, this is a species that has bred in the US from time-to-time as well. Unless you are telling me this species is commonly bred in Europe now, I fail to see how this is an example of why chameleon keeping in Europe is ahead of the US. Europe has a number of serious chameleon breeders currently who have been quite successful in breeding some unusual species, but the US has had that too, particularly when we could legally obtain some of the species you guys now have such prevalent access to as illegally smuggled animals or specimens from illegally obtained lineages. A limited number of experienced US keepers actively working on breeding species other than the 3 most common is definitely an example of where the EU is making strides beyond the US at the moment, but a single individual having success with this species is not.

Chris

 

[Eszzie]

I think the hard thing about US is that every state has different rules and makes it hard to keep or get certain species. In Europe it's maybe easier to get certain species and so there's more people that have the ability to breed with special species.

 

[eisentrauti]

@Kent: There are three or four more with success with this species. Not so bad and not less people than in the US ?
@Chris: Please dont make such a success bad with the "illegal" animals argument. Wheather they are illegal or not, CBs were produced. And I highly doubt that there hatch more wiedersheimis in the US than in Europe, if they are now illegal or not. Another example with completely legal ones:
Quadricornis are here very common, cristatus too, both as CB. And in the US ? The same with elliotis and even with xantholophus. I mean xantholophus are imported and sold frequently as gravid females from Hawaii, but as far as I know the common sites, they arent often offered as CB ones.
There's one thing where the US is way ahead: Piebald or "high yellow/high orange" calyptratus. Everything else is in Europe better available as CBs.

 

[Kent67]

I can think of at least 3 people in the US, just on this site, who've had baby "weidersheimi" in the last year or so. As for the rest, I've been trying to think of a good way to respond but the basic point of everything is this: if you were into chameleons 15-20 years ago in the US you wouldn't have the opinion that anywhere else is "more advanced" currently. Over time breeders learned what sells and what doesn't when it comes to cb animals. What you see today is a result of that experience. Off the top of my head I can't think of any "commonly" imported species that have not been reproduced here, including a lot of the pre-1995 Madagascar species.

 

[Chris Jury]

I mean xantholophus are imported and sold frequently as gravid females from Hawaii, but as far as I know the common sites, they arent often offered as CB ones.

Huh-uh. That is exceedingly illegal. Hawaii allows an individual to hand carry up to four chameleons out of the state one time only, and with legal documentation. Smuggling out more than that comes with stiff fines, and possible jail time, and these laws are enforced. Chameleons aren't coming out of Hawaii in any kind of significant numbers any more. T. j. xantholophus are available as captive bred specimens from a number of sources quite regularly. Wild collected ones from South Florida are also becoming available.

I've gotta say though, the suggestion that Europeans or Europe is inherently better at chameleon husbandry (or the husbandry of many other species, as I've seen this claim show up in a variety of venues) is simply silly IMHO. Americans have and have had as much success with any species as European counterparts, given similar access to the animals.

My feeling as to why many species are only rarely bred in the US as compared to some in Europe is that it comes down largely to price and demand. Not many people are willing to invest time and effort into breeding species that are readily available as wild-caught individuals at low prices when they will make little if any money (and may incur a significant loss) on the venture. It doesn't make good financial sense to devote time, energy, and space to breeding Ch. dilepis, for example, if it costs as much to raise the babies to a saleable size as it does to buy a wild-caught adult. In addition to this financial aspect, some species sell really well and other species less so. In particular, Ch. calyptratus is relatively cheap, easy to raise, and colorful, and is therefore well liked by lots of people. F. pardalis is relatively easy and can be stunningly colored, making it very popular too. Spending time and money raising a species like Ch. dilepis, or T. weidersheimi only to find little demand for the juveniles as compared to F. pardalis (which can make you much more money given a similar investment of time, money, and effort) makes it harder to justify doing it.

If many of these species were available in limited numbers and at higher prices, I think you'd see a much greater effort toward captive breeding and far more captive bred animals. As it is now, most species that are available are available too readily or too cheaply as wild-caught, stiffling captive breeding efforts. If or when they no longer become available as cheap wild-caught specimens (such as with the Malagasy ban) I'm afraid that many of these species would be lost from captivity as well simply because no one has gone to the effort of establishing breeding groups. Unfortunately few people do go to the trouble with many species because of the low demand and low economic insentive with captive bred individuals as compared to wild-caught ones.

Supply and demand, supply and demand.

cj

 

[eisentrauti]

Huh-uh. That is exceedingly illegal. Hawaii allows an individual to hand carry up to four chameleons out of the state one time only, and with legal documentation. Smuggling out more than that comes with stiff fines, and possible jail time, and these laws are enforced. Chameleons aren't coming out of Hawaii in any kind of significant numbers any more. T. j. xantholophus are available as captive bred specimens from a number of sources quite regularly. Wild collected ones from South Florida are also becoming available.

Yes, that's why the big wholesellers offer 4.6 groups of adult xantholophus. They are all CB. Huh-uh ... or lots of 10 and more...

I've gotta say though, the suggestion that Europeans or Europe is inherently better at chameleon husbandry (or the husbandry of many other species, as I've seen this claim show up in a variety of venues) is simply silly IMHO. Americans have and have had as much success with any species as European counterparts, given similar access to the animals.

More monitor species (with papers), more gecko species, more dartfrog species, more of every single genus which cant be breed in high numbers in racksystems like an industry...

Species like tavetanum are here breed more or less regularly, even if it's cheaper to buy them as WCs. Why ? People accept higher prices for much and better work.

If you downsize a hobby, which it is the big majority of the members here, on the level of supply and demand it doesnt put a good light on the attitude of a big community. People like Juli, if I remember right, even documentated that they dont make money if they raise a species like calyptratus. But they do it.

This is my opinion. I am waiting for examples where the US is leading.

 

[Chris Jury]

Yes, that's why the big wholesellers offer 4.6 groups of adult xantholophus. They are all CB. Huh-uh ... or lots of 10 and more...

As I said, wild collected individuals from South Florida are becoming available. Nonetheless, it's not hard to track down cb Jackson's, from juveniles to subadults.

More monitor species (with papers), more gecko species, more dartfrog species, more of every single genus which cant be breed in high numbers in racksystems like an industry...

Species like tavetanum are here breed more or less regularly, even if it's cheaper to buy them as WCs. Why ? People accept higher prices for much and better work.

If you downsize a hobby, which it is the big majority of the members here, on the level of supply and demand it doesnt put a good light on the attitude of a big community. People like Juli, if I remember right, even documentated that they dont make money if they raise a species like calyptratus. But they do it.

This is my opinion. I am waiting for examples where the US is leading.

As I said, species that are readily available as cheap, wild caught individuals are not often bred (monitors are good example), probably because there is little economic incentive to do so, and it is not so easy to place the offspring. Species that are in demand, aren't prohibitively cheap, and are in some way or another available are bred. Again, monitors are a good example: Frank Retes bred many species for years before just about anybody else was having any success. Folks in Europe reasoned that his success must be because he kept his animals outside (in Arizona) whereas they couldn't. No, it turns out most of his animals were kept inside. It must be this, it must be that. No, it just turned out he had a knack for their husbandry, and was able to get access to a number of species, and those species sold for high prices, making it well worth his time to breed them.

Again, the suggestion that Europeans are inherently better at animal husbandry than Americans (or Japanese, or Australians, or...etc.) is just silly to me. Which species are regularly bred is the product of a variety of forces including availability, demand, and history. Saying that 'people on my continent are breeding more species of group X (at this particular moment) than people on your continent means we are better at animal husbandry (nah nah, boo boo)' is a very poor argument, IMHO, and completely ignores the real underlying factors at play.

cj

 

[chameleonneeds]

People bred smuggled furcifer labordi 16 years ago in South Africa.
And some people have had success with breeding mellers here.
There are some people who are also going to have a shot at breeding Parsonii this year.
There are also now captive bred merumontanus and xantholophus in South Africa, I guess you just need the oppurtunities to get your hands on the "rare" species to prove what you are capable of.

 

[eisentrauti]

Do you notice one thing ? You are argueing with the past. Very bad. Btw: What happend with the Calummas and Bradypodions over there (tons of parsoniis/Langerwerfs thamnobates)? Not all animals in Europe are smuggled...

And about the monitors: I think it's very lucrative to breed members of the prasinus complex or nearly everyting from Australia. And again, if my arguments are that "poor" please give me examples which are not older than this forum. There were guys like Bert Langerwerf which created massive breakthroughs but beside I dont know that many. Maybe I'm just too young...

 

[eisentrauti]

People bred smuggled furcifer labordi 16 years ago in South Africa.
And some people have had success with breeding mellers here.
There are some people who are also going to have a shot at breeding Parsonii this year.
There are also now captive bred merumontanus and xantholophus in South Africa, I guess you just need the oppurtunities to get your hands on the "rare" species to prove what you are capable of.

Tyrone, they (have) had everything. But the results werent that good. So now the success here in Europe bases just on smuggled animals.

 

[Damaranum]

I think discussion leads no way.

I think it's almost impossible to say where more or better results occur. And in the end this is not really important.

The biggest problem I have in general with keeping reptiles is the financial discussion above the reason why people tend to keep species. I can understand dealers chose for animals which have high profits but as a hoobyist we should choose for the animals we like to care for. (That's also a reason why I do not stimulate the usage of the word beginners species, as everybody should first read enough about a species and then decide if he can keep them).

I think all over the world by far most reptiles are kept as a hobby and people have 1 or 2 animals. Most off those people will not have any influence on the general view we have on breeding results. And when those people breed there is a bigger chance this are the more common species.
There is only a small group of people who have a much bigger collection and a drive on breeding more and rarer species. And althoug many attemps are made to create 'groups' you see those in general only succeed for a short periode (less then 5 year) to continu breeding the same chameleon species as there is a big chance some members of the group get other interests. And for some people money is the key driver in breeding and this often doesn't go well together with rare species. (ofcourse their are exceptions with rare species which are very wanted such as some gecko's species). And many of those people then tend to keep many species (as I did myself as well for many years) and this also makes it hard to get to stable bloodlines.

I really think it is not important who breeds more where over the world. But fora as this should be used to share knowledge about achievements we make, in a good or bad way. And their I really want to complement Tom as he is really open in sharing his information.

And secondly it would be very good if we found a way that the select group of people who breed the rarer species become able of exchanging bloodlines (and information) intercontinantal.

I think this can be a very good discussion but shoudn't be in this topic!

@Tom very nice to see them growing up so good! keep up this good work.

 

[Kent67]

This is my opinion. I am waiting for examples where the US is leading.

That's the point. We've already been there, done that. Our market changed and evolved, though. If you were 6 years old at the time, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Why should anyone breed large numbers of a species that takes 8 months to sell the juveniles of? It's not that they can't be bred here, there's no incentive to. Those other species could have become more popular as cbb but the general public migrated towards panthers and veileds. So that's what gets reproduced here. As CJ said, it's supply and demand. If "high orange" calyptratus were more popular in Europe, there'd be more of them there. I agree that comparing the two is silly.

 

[Chris Jury]

Agreed with the above: we've said what we can say Benny. If it's unsatisfying to you, ok, but it makes little sense to me to keep debating this with you.

Tom: gorgeous animals, and many congratulations on the success!

 

[eisentrauti]

Agreed with the above: we've said what we can say Benny. If it's unsatisfying to you, ok, but it makes little sense to me to keep debating this with you.

If you can still not find any arguments then I know why you wont keep on debating...
@Kent: I dont know the market like you do over there, but I am quite sure that CB merumontanus, deremensis, johnstoni, cristatus, fuelleborni, tempeli, hoehnelii, j.jacksoniis etc pp will need 8 months to be sold. If sb puts an add for CB merus online I bet that he will get over 50 mails/pms in the first week. So why arent they breed more often ? The supply/demand argument doesnt work always...

 

[Chris Jury]

If you can still not find any arguments then I know why you wont keep on debating...

::shakes head:: Good lord--how old are you? Are we children??? (this is rhetorical)

 

[eisentrauti]

For Tom, to end this discussion:
Chris, you defeat me ! Your arguments were way better, your douzens of examples were way better than mine. Sorry that I dont recognize this earlier.

 

[Kent67]

@Kent: I dont know the market like you do over there, but I am quite sure that CB merumontanus, deremensis, johnstoni, cristatus, fuelleborni, tempeli, hoehnelii, j.jacksoniis etc pp will need 8 months to be sold.

You know, I will concede that I am thinking of a few years ago when Chameleon Forums was not around and the internet was maybe not as widely used as today. But, that was the word from more than just one "large, commercial" breeder who only work with pardalis and calyptratus now. I remember cbb deremensis, in particular, being discussed as one of those species it takes too long to sell when the cage space could be used for those other two species that DO sell when they're ready. To be honest, I was shocked with how successful Josh Hensley was with selling his baby quads when I used to sit on them until they were practically breedable before selling them. I think this site has a lot to do with Josh's success. The point is, though, that breeding, hatching, and raising neos of most chameleon species is not that difficult and they've all been done in the US many times. Why are they not done more often now? Because people don't want to. That's it. Well, that and the chameleon community in the US is not concerned with who's winning some imaginary race we didn't even know about to have the most cbb variety. A real race would have been who could reproduce certain species first, not who can produce the most once they've already been figured out and the details for doing it published for all to see.

Tom, I sure apologize for the way this thread has gone. I agree it is all pointless but this "belief" that some areas are better at reproducing chameleons, when we're all using the same techniques and husbandry (an equal amount of which was discovered/published in the US first) is ignorant of the past and I find it insulting. This time I couldn't let it go and I'm sorry your thread got cluttered with it. Here's a pic I took yesterday of one of my juvie Trioceros perreti

 

[eisentrauti]

Kent, I am talking about the present. It's a shame that deremensis were difficult to sell some years ago but I cant believe that this situation is still lasting. And my favourite example the merumontanus, whats with them ? They dont need much space, they dont need much electricity, they dont need much food and they sell easy. Every year douzens of them are imported but where are the juveniles of the WC females ? From my own experience I know that its not easy to breed them in multiple generations but at least CH ones should be possible

 

[Kent67]

Kent, I am talking about the present.

*Sigh* Ok, so why should anyone who's already had difficulty selling species other than the big 2 spend the money, time, and effort to establish another project with them again, without a guarantee that they'll sell? It's a risk when they know that calyptratus and pardalis are not.

As for you merumontanus example, just like in Europe, not all keepers in the US are on this forum, or any forum for that matter. The lack of juvie merumontanus pictures on the internet is not proof of their nonexistence. I'm sure you realize that, though. In the last couple months I've seen captive produced hoehnelli, xanths, and multituberculatas at local stores that do absolutely no internet advertising. Do they not exist here, too, because pictures weren't posted for you to see?

 

[Kent67]

One last thought I forgot to include in the last post, and I'm done. Benny, I assume/hope that your argument is based more on an interest in the animals rather than in winning some "we're better than you are, nyah nyah nyah" crap, as I feel you are often interpreted. If that is the case, then, I do agree wholeheartedly with you that it is a shame that the "chameleon community" in the US is not as interested in reproducing these creatures as they once were. And yes, far too many wild caught chameleons are imported into the US for their (seemingly) low reproductive numbers. Why that has changed or how the attitude could be improved, I'd love to know. It's not for lack of information, husbandry, climate, etc. Hopefully we can at least agree on that.