Trioceros wiedersheimi peretti hatchling

[eisentrauti]

One last thought I forgot to include in the last post, and I'm done. Benny, I assume/hope that your argument is based more on an interest in the animals rather than in winning some "we're better than you are, nyah nyah nyah" crap, as I feel you are often interpreted. If that is the case, then, I do agree wholeheartedly with you that it is a shame that the "chameleon community" in the US is not as interested in reproducing these creatures as they once were. And yes, far too many wild caught chameleons are imported into the US for their (seemingly) low reproductive numbers. Why that has changed or how the attitude could be improved, I'd love to know. It's not for lack of information, husbandry, climate, etc. Hopefully we can at least agree on that.

I was never interested in any "nyah nyah nyah" anyone is better than someone else. For me, it's just not really acceptable to get tons of WC animals every year without even trying to get juveniles out of them. I failed with many species but I've had my success with others. Some persons dont really seem to be interested in trying it or they are just too lazy. I think that we, as the consumers of WC reptiles, have the duty to try our best. If we dont do it we shouldnt wonder when sometimes more bans will follow. So what chameleon species will be left after a one or two or five year reptile import ban? Ten species or only five ? Or maybe just calyptratus, pardalis and some really old parsoniis ?

Thats my main problem here. I cant force anybody to breed animals which dont promise the fast dollar, but I hope I dont have to hear them in the future crying around when those animals arent still available, for whatever the reason is.
And now theres my next problem with the attitude of some persons: They condemn illegal chameleons (yes, Europe is full of them) and the offspring of them without realizing that a 5 juveniles of an illegal pair are better than 0 juveniles from a legal pair

 

[Kent67]

IAnd now theres my next problem with the attitude of some persons: They condemn illegal chameleons (yes, Europe is full of them) and the offspring of them without realizing that a 5 juveniles of an illegal pair are better than 0 juveniles from a legal pair

How exactly is that better than the 30 juvies that pair would've produced if left in the wild, where they're supposed to be? I'm utterly confused.

Edit: And for that one pair that produced 5 juvies in captivity, how many total pairs from the wild did it take? I see it like this....20 Parsonii get smuggled to country X where they are turned over as cbb. By the time they get to the US or Europe, how many of that original 20 are left? We'll say 15. Then they get to the final destination country where another 20-30% mortality occurs before they're all in suitable homes. Now there's 12 left of that 20. Two years later there are 5 juvies and that's supposed to make up for the 20 smuggled out of Madagascar....10 of which were females that could've produced a lot more than 5 juvies if left in Madagascar.

 

[eisentrauti]

How exactly is that better than the 30 juvies that pair would've produced if left in the wild, where they're supposed to be? I'm utterly confused.

30 is better than 5 but 5 is still better than 0. And I highly doubt that more than 10% of a clutch in the wild make it to adulthood. But that's complete other topic

 

[Kent67]

Hey Benny, look at our current post counts. I will admit you are winning that race....just barely Good job, sir. Hope you saw my edit to the post before to explain further my attitude.

Edit: Oops, I was looking at the wrong post. I'm barely ahead but I know it won't last long.

 

[eisentrauti]

Sorry that I answered too fast My idea of the comparison was based on animals which were legaly available at your place but not here in Europe (eg WC deremensis, fuellebornis, wiedersheimis). Maybe this explains my post better.
But what am I writing. Probably I get again negative rep points together with insults.

 

[Kent67]

Ah, yes, and I tend to forget that the examples of those Trioceros species are supposed to be prohibited from the EU because they seem so well-represented there. That does explain it better. Although I wouldn't call them plentiful here by any means (it seems like the same sellers who, predicatably, work with the same importers/wholesalers) there are too many imported vs apparently produced here. I believe the same is probably true in Europe and Asia, as well.

I'd like to know the actual numbers accepted through USF&W currently (2009-present, maybe) if anyone has a source. It seems that only a handful of Cameroon shipments come in each year. Tanzania is pretty common but the horned species seem less frequent since the temporary suspension.

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Someone needs to get out a ruler.

But then the argument would be whether to use inches or centimeters....

 

[BelgiumLizard]

??? What happend here???
Come on folks...it doesn't matter who breeds more than who.
The purposes of breeding must be to get further with a species and share your knowledge of the species with the world.
And thats what Doelgroep Kameleons does!

The funny thing of whole this thread is, that when I started with Trioceros perreti that I have asked Elisa Hinkle(yes you know her all as chamelisa) to explain to me how she keept her Trioceros wiedersheimi and Trioceros perreti.
The same I have done with Rik Van Tiggel(ZooMed), because he had some breeding experiences back in the '90.
And there were others also, but I think you get point!

Ofcourse I had to think out my plan by myself, but the experiences of other keepers helpt me on the way to choose wrong and wright about some issues.

The last thing I want to say to you all...
Please people work together and share your knowledge!

Best regards,
Tom Verbraeken
www.doelgroepkameleons.be

 

[CNorton]

Give us an update Tom! How are those babies growing up? We need pictures!!

 

[chameleonneeds]

Some very interesting arguments being thrown around here!

But let me tell you the solution to your selling problems of ALL species...get them to me and I GUARANTEE that you will sell anything for around $500-$1000.

Due to the law here the price is set up very high and there is a significant demand.
There is a SINGLE montium pair in the country and when the male was sold he went for around $900, yep $900 for just 1 male WILDCAUGHT montium.

A multituberculata (dont know if thats correct spelling) went for over $500, also a wildcaught male...

And if you can get new bloodlines/pure breed locales of panthers you are in the money! If you get a single clutch of 15 pure ambilobes, tamataves, nosy mitsios, nosy falys, or any others you are looking at making easily $10 000 from just that one clutch. And people will want to pay that price and take all of the babies from you straight away, even if they are 2 days old!

@Belgium lizard...your chams are very nice! I saw them on another forum too, good job that you are doing over there, I wish I could also be working on a cameroon project consisting of cristatus, quadricornis, montium, weirdersheimis and all the rest!

Oh and a clutch of Parsonii eggs have been laid in S.A now to just wait and see if they hatch and we might have CB parsonii!