Unknown death female panther overnight

[Johnnytruelove]

Hi,
I have a few female panthers an suddenly one died overnight. Found her hanging from a branch this morning. No body movements but tongue sticking out alittle. So thought see if maybe swallowed something. An she bit my finger. But isn't moving an has black spots with sunken eyes.
Last thing I feed was small superworms. Mostly because wasn't interested in small crickets.
I have her in a 18"18"36" tall enclosure with back an right side with window insulation plastic. Rest is regular mesh. I hand mist her cage few times daily. Has three live plants potho umbrella an spider plant. Reptisun t5 5.0 an dimmer 75 watt basking bulb for around 85 degrees basking. She's around 8-9 months old. Don't think it's egg issue. Seems be to young still for egg development.
Just heart broken she died. Thought I was doing everything correct. Only thing can think of was superworms or had some other underlying issue that could of caused death. Just going keep a eye on other two females I have an my male.
Just really depressing throwing away rest of superworms I have.

 

[Johnnytruelove]

Maybe she wasn't fully gone yet. But she is currently. Just trying figure out what could of happen. Seemed be basking an fine last night before lights went down. Still have her sister from same clutch. Just hoping she will be fine.

 

[Pickle-cham]

The poop only looks partially digested, was she fed exclusively superworms? The sore looks to be anatomically within the intestinal region

 

[Johnnytruelove]

Exclusively correct because she wasn't interested in crickets on Friday. So she eat a few small superworms I let climb the mesh. Seems get them to eat. So she eat superworms that were still alive an got to intestinal region?

 

[DocZ]

I’m really sorry you lost your girl. That’s very sad
I thinks it’s always good to look over husbandry when there is a death or health issues. If you fill out this questionnaire, there may be something folks can identify that may have contributed to her death and you can improve these parameters and help out your other Cham too

How to ask for help

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

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Please Note:

1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
2. Photos can be very helpful.

 

[Pickle-cham]

Exclusively correct because she wasn't interested in crickets on Friday. So she eat a few small superworms I let climb the mesh. Seems get them to eat. So she eat superworms that were still alive an got to intestinal region?

Ive heard only tales of this happening, horror stories of them eating their way out. Not saying this is the case with your chameleon, but if she wasn't biting them to kill them then the are capable of biting

 

[Uri]

Ive heard only tales of this happening, horror stories of them eating their way out. Not saying this is the case with your chameleon, but if she wasn't biting them to kill them then the are capable of biting

I’m not sure how much I’d believe these tho they shoulda also suffocated in the stomach or died from the stomach acids not saying they are false rumors but they seem a but far fetched for me to believe also I’m very sorry for your loss poor girl

 

[Chameleoking]

Superworms probably will not be able to survive the environment in the stomach. Doing a quick search on google, it seems that they live between 30 seconds to 1.5 minutes in water alone, so in stomach acid I'd imagine even if they were eaten whole, the acid would kill it fairly quickly. But I guess anything is possible

 

[Johnnytruelove]

If anyone could save me a vet visit. After investigating an burying her this evening. I made a nice little wooden box for her.
Took a photo of 16-17 eggs in her stomach. Would this be a cause of death an why wouldn't she lay them in laying bin. I will also do the ask for help chart for my other two. They are fairly similar setups.

 

[Johnnytruelove]

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care? Panther Sambava female 8-10 months old an been in my career for almost 7 months.

• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Once a week or climbs arm by herself when misting.

• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? Crickets 12-20 per day I use collard greens carrots an snap peas. With bug burger or a roach chow recently.

• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Repashy superfoods calcium plus LoD and super cal NoD. Super cal every feeding an calcium plus LoD twice a month.

• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? I hand mist for about 30-60 seconds 2-3 times a day. Yes she would drink the drips. Also use a defuser for humidity during sleeping just distilled water no oils.

• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Brown/dark brown an white/orange urrates an never been tested for parasites.

• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. Had a goiter near the dewlap neck region.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? Full mesh zoomed reptibreeze with window insulation plastic on back an left an right sides. 18"18"36" tall.

• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? Arcadia 6% 12 on 12 off on digital timers.

• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? Basking 80-85 an floor Temps 68-72 I think never really checked floor Temps. 65 over night Temps an use a temp gun.

• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? Not sure on these levels I use a cool mist humidifier at night. Nothing to measure.

• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Golden potho philodendron types an spider/umbrella plants. Not sure on name of the whiteish pothos with white an green leaves.



• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• In family room only near a fan in summer for air flow of heat. AC broke this late summer. It is a high traffic area but they don't seem to mind an can't see the dogs. It's on a stand about 3-4 feet tall an cages placed on top.

• Location - Where are you geographically located? Central America.

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
Unknown death an undigested superworms an had eggs in the stomach. But found this to late.

 

[kinyonga]

Oval is eggs and round is follicles....not sure if those are all oval or not. Can you tell?

15 to 20 crickets a day...if they were full grown ones.

Not sure why she would have died though...I'm not a vet and can't see anything conclusive.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Sorry for your loss.

I too am wondering about the dark mark on her side—hematoma/internal injury?

I'll second that the superworms thing is a myth.

MYTH #4: Superworms will chew through your pet’s stomach​

Many new pet owners are terrified at the thought of feeding superworms to their reptiles or amphibians because they’ve heard that superworms can chew through their pet’s stomach and essentially eat them from the inside out. This Alien-esque imagery is definitely a strong deterrent. However, it’s more urban legend than fact. Superworms are neutralized by the dark, highly acidic environment of your pet’s stomach, and do not poses a threat to healthy animals.
https://dubiaroaches.com/blogs/feeder-insects/14-myths-about-feeder-insects

All I can add to what's been said is that these are not easy animals to keep, and sometimes despite doing everything 100% correctly, these things can happen.

 

[Johnnytruelove]

Oval is eggs and round is follicles....not sure if those are all oval or not. Can you tell?

15 to 20 crickets a day...if they were full grown ones.

Not sure why she would have died though...I'm not a vet and can't see anything conclusive.

Sorry for your loss.

They looked oval to me.
15-20 small crickets they only eat like 5 big ones when fed. Same an having similar issues with her sister currently. May make a thread on her current situation.

 

[Johnnytruelove]

Sorry for your loss.

I too am wondering about the dark mark on her side—hematoma/internal injury?

I'll second that the superworms thing is a myth.


All I can add to what's been said is that these are not easy animals to keep, and sometimes despite doing everything 100% correctly, these things can happen.

Have no clue on injury or dark marks. They weren't shown other day. When she was basking.

 

[kinyonga]

Please post photos of the other one that is having issues here too.

Do you have egglaying bins in their cages? What substrate?

 

[Johnnytruelove]

Please post photos of the other one that is having issues here too.

Do you have egglaying bins in their cages? What substrate?

Have same bins of 50/50 play sand an organic potting soil as recommended. Is it normal for a female panther. To climb your arm out of cage during misting. Did it 3 times today. Hopefully can notice two different females. Uploading spread them around.

 

[Snuits]

Aw. Poor baby. I'm sorry for your loss ♡

 

[Johnnytruelove]

Aw. Poor baby. I'm sorry for your loss ♡

Yea I feel bad an miss her. She was gentle always liked my attention an my wife's. My wife was more attached. Noticed with mostly misting today. She did the rest.
My male panther bit her. But wasn't to bad. Think she got to close. He was in a full body shed. Told her to offer crickets an let water do its job with shedding.
He doesn't seem as comfortable around humans as the females do.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Yea I feel bad an miss her. She was gentle always liked my attention an my wife's. My wife was more attached. Noticed with mostly misting today. She did the rest.
My male panther bit her. But wasn't to bad. Think she got to close. He was in a full body shed. Told her to offer crickets an let water do its job with shedding.
He doesn't seem as comfortable around humans as the females do.

They can get grumpy during sheds. Mine has bitten me twice, but that was a while ago, and both times when I tried to get him—Ol' GrumpyPants—off my back when he ran up my arm and climbed around.

Panthers are dry shedders; just maintain their normal humidity—nothing extra is needed.

Hopefully they'll all eventually come around with time & patience, but there are no guarantees; they're all individuals.

 

[kinyonga]

You said the male panther bit her....how was he close enough to bite her? That isn't what made the mark on her side?
Was there any damage to her internally when you cut her open to get the eggs? Would the eggs be fertile?

Are you breeding them? Can the females see the male often? Are they all in separate cages?

They're dry shedders and moistening them during a shed just makes things worse as a rule.

You said the female was climbing your arm to get out of the cage...if that's an unusual/different than normal action for her, then it might mean something...like she's looking for a place to lay the eggs or looking for a male.