Urgent! My chameleon needs surgery or she'll die. Need advice please.

[Djborx]

Hi there, I think I replied in your other post, but I've been alerted to this one and was awed to comment with any advice. First of all your gir is beautiful! She is very chubby and is probably very uncomfortable that is why she isn't eating. I currently have a gravid gal who has been off of food for a week - don't worry about ack of food intake too much, so long as she is stil hydrating herself. In the past I have had a veiled girl unable to lay. She had the eggs and her ovaries removed and honestly she came through the surgery great! However, I will say that it takes a long time for chameleon skin to heal and 4-5 months after surgery my gal opened her incision on a branch. We had is restitched but she passed a few months later from an infection in her incision. The best hint for her would be the surgery. At this pint you don't have much to lose as without it she will die. I'd say you have a better chance with the surgery at this point!

Thank you for the feedback, all these egg stories are just terrible. I'm sorry for your loss.
How long did you wait before she had surgery? (from the time she was showing gravid symptoms). The X-ray has shown that she has eggs indeed but the vet wasn't sure if they were ready or not, he thinks that the are ready now because of the calcium level.

Courious, how much would the operation cost?

The vet has offered me a discount since I've been a few times in the last 4 days and each visit was expensive. They have also taken some photos of my chameleon for their website. It will be 200€ which is around $260, although I have already spent more than that in the vet in the last 4 days. I just hope all goes well to be honest.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

It is hard when you don't know how long she's been gravid to know when it's time to operate. Sometimes they will get stuck in the stage of follicular stasis, where the shells never actually form completely. That was what happened with my last case - so the eggs never quite looked ready on the x-rays because the shells didn't form. That was really pushed me to recommend surgery because waiting longer wasn't going to change anything. We did oxytocin just in case, but surgery confirmed they were just follicles and weren't ever going to get past that stage. It would have killed her without surgery.

Exotic animals always pose more risks with surgery than dogs and cats do. But if your girl is indeed egg bound, then you unfortunately do not have another option. Hoping for the best for you and Ninja!

 

[jannb]

It is hard when you don't know how long she's been gravid to know when it's time to operate. Sometimes they will get stuck in the stage of follicular stasis, where the shells never actually form completely. That was what happened with my last case - so the eggs never quite looked ready on the x-rays because the shells didn't form. That was really pushed me to recommend surgery because waiting longer wasn't going to change anything. We did oxytocin just in case, but surgery confirmed they were just follicles and weren't ever going to get past that stage. It would have killed her without surgery.

Exotic animals always pose more risks with surgery than dogs and cats do. But if your girl is indeed egg bound, then you unfortunately do not have another option. Hoping for the best for you and Ninja!

Did you see the x-rays in the other thread?
https://www.chameleonforums.com/gravid-veiled-i-think-doesnt-want-lay-eggs-135672/

I am closely watching this thread since my little Lottie has eggs at only 6 months old. I had her x-rayed 19 days ago and she is still eating and active and showing no interest in the laying bin. Also Dr. Mader is out of town all week.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Oh I didn't see the X-rays, thanks for the link! There are some smaller oval shapes like more mature eggs and there are some larger round shapes like immature eggs/follicles. This may be an indication that the eggs are still progressing, or it may not because egg binding can happen at any time. Do you know how long she's been looking gravid? That would be good to know, but I know sometimes that can be hard to determine...

 

[kinyonga]

The same thing has been bothering me...some round looking some slightly oval...makes me wonder if they aren't ready yet....but still could be in stasis. Bummer is that it's only three days until the weekend....maybe not enough time to know..and Monday might be too long.

 

[Djborx]

Did you see the x-rays in the other thread?
https://www.chameleonforums.com/gravid-veiled-i-think-doesnt-want-lay-eggs-135672/.

Thanks for pointing this out!

Oh I didn't see the X-rays, thanks for the link! There are some smaller oval shapes like more mature eggs and there are some larger round shapes like immature eggs/follicles. This may be an indication that the eggs are still progressing, or it may not because egg binding can happen at any time. Do you know how long she's been looking gravid? That would be good to know, but I know sometimes that can be hard to determine...

I'm not sure if this answers your question but she started showing symptoms (spending time in the bottom of the cage and slightly restless) around week and a half ago, give or take a day. That's when I realised she was gravid, I never noticed how fat she was since she has always been slightly chubby. The vet says that the reason why he believes she is egg bound is because her calcium levels are too high (4.18) which means the eggs are fully formed and they should be in the oviduct or a lower section of something like that, since they are not there, she won't be able to lay them now. This only came up today though when he did the blood test. When he saw the x-rays last friday, he wasn't able to tell if the eggs were ready or not.
I wonder if I can hold on surgery till early next week just in case the eggs might not be ready and she decides to lay them...

The same thing has been bothering me...some round looking some slightly oval...makes me wonder if they aren't ready yet....but still could be in stasis. Bummer is that it's only three days until the weekend....maybe not enough time to know..and Monday might be too long.

You are so right, and the sad thing is that she can really weaken in a day or two... I still would like to wait a bit longer to see if she lays and save her from this experience but I just don't know...

 

[repdog]

What would happen if you wait until Friday and have x-rays done again? If it shows they are moving then you really would be able to wait. Even with the calcium levels this high. If they are not moving or growing then do the surgery. Sounds like x-rays were only taken once so far? Also can you set up the app. and cancel if she does lay the eggs? Some vets will let you do that. Don't mind me if I'm way of base. I stick with the boys.

 

[ChameleonMom]

Honestly to me your girl doesn't look quite ready to lay. I am comparing her to my girl Daisy who is fairly chubby and of similar build. Daisy always has very large clutches and will often look like a little bag of marbles. I always worry, but she always knows just when the right time is to lay!

 

[ChameleonMom]

Also, I am not sure where you are located but for me, having my previous girl go through surgery to rid herself of the eggs and spay her I paid about CAD $125.00.

 

[Djborx]

Oh I didn't see the X-rays, thanks for the link! There are some smaller oval shapes like more mature eggs and there are some larger round shapes like immature eggs/follicles. This may be an indication that the eggs are still progressing, or it may not because egg binding can happen at any time. Do you know how long she's been looking gravid? That would be good to know, but I know sometimes that can be hard to determine...

I forgot to let you know that the blood test was only done yesterday, the X-rays and the shots of oxytocin and calcium were the first things we did. Maybe we should have started with the blood test and then do the rest...

What would happen if you wait until Friday and have x-rays done again? If it shows they are moving then you really would be able to wait. Even with the calcium levels this high. If they are not moving or growing then do the surgery. Sounds like x-rays were only taken once so far? Also can you set up the app. and cancel if she does lay the eggs? Some vets will let you do that. Don't mind me if I'm way of base. I stick with the boys.

I can't move the surgery date, they will charge me a fine otherwise. If she lays the egg then I will of course cancel, but I can't cancel otherwise. X-rays were only taken once so far, the vet just wants to do surgery.
EDIT: After I spoke to him, we have moved the surgery date will next tuesday, however, if she gets very sick, he might still be able to do it this coming friday.

Honestly to me your girl doesn't look quite ready to lay. I am comparing her to my girl Daisy who is fairly chubby and of similar build. Daisy always has very large clutches and will often look like a little bag of marbles. I always worry, but she always knows just when the right time is to lay!

Thanks for the feedback, hopefully you are right. I'm going to speak to the vet a bit later and tell him to schedule surgery for next week, this way we will have a bit more time to see if she lays. I just hope she doesn't deteriorate in the meantime.

Also, I am not sure where you are located but for me, having my previous girl go through surgery to rid herself of the eggs and spay her I paid about CAD $125.00.

I'm in Europe, in Amsterdam. It's very expensive here. Each visit is 50USD for the consultation only, then, depending what they do there are extra charges. For example, X-rays 95USD, blood test 40USD, shot of oxytocin + calcium 18USD, all on top of the $50 consultation charge. I'm lucky that he is going to give me a discount on the surgery but it will still be much more than what you pay. There goes my new iPad!

 

[Djborx]

Surgery is scheduled for next tuesday

It's done, I decided to move it till next week in the end. You all have been extremely helpful! I just hope I have made the right decision.
The good thing is that the vet told me that if for any reason Ninja deteriorates to let him know, he might still be able to fit her on friday.
For now, she has complete privacy and I'm keeping an eye via a webcam I have installed in the cage so she won't be disturbed.

 

[jannb]

Did you see the x-rays in the other thread?
https://www.chameleonforums.com/gravid-veiled-i-think-doesnt-want-lay-eggs-135672/

I am closely watching this thread since my little Lottie has eggs at only 6 months old. I had her x-rayed 19 days ago and she is still eating and active and showing no interest in the laying bin. Also Dr. Mader is out of town all week.

I'm hoping Ninja will be able to lay her eggs before surgery. She looks good in the picture.

 

[Djborx]

Thanks Jann. Fingers crossed! Hope all goes well with yours too.

 

[chameleons707]

so how is she doing? is she doing fine any eggs yet?

 

[Psychobunny]

She looks healthy and content, I think you are doing the right thing by waiting a few more days and giving her complete privacy.
I have never owned a female cham, so I don't have any experience with these matters, but maybe another x-ray would tell if the eggs are fully formed, and if they have moved to the right position.
Trouble with that idea is, it may cause undue stress, which is obviously something you want to avoid.

Hope all turns out well.

 

[Djborx]

so how is she doing? is she doing fine any eggs yet?

She is doing fine, everything is ok, besides eating, she barely eats. For the rest, is quite normal. She was quite active today actually. I'll put some pics I took when I went to feed her.

She looks healthy and content, I think you are doing the right thing by waiting a few more days and giving her complete privacy.
I have never owned a female cham, so I don't have any experience with these matters, but maybe another x-ray would tell if the eggs are fully formed, and if they have moved to the right position.
Trouble with that idea is, it may cause undue stress, which is obviously something you want to avoid.

Thanks so much, so far she looks happy... today she has been quite active actually, but not signs of eggs yet. Hopefully before Tuesday!

 

[Djborx]

Few pics from today

Today when I went to feed her, she came down from her basking spot to greet me (she usually does that if I stay for a few minutes) so I took a few pics, maybe you can see from her size if the eggs have been developed.

Here she is coming down and trying get on me (I didn't let her, no playing until she has laid those eggs!). You will notice the sides of the cage are covered by towels, those are not usually there.

Here she is just sitting on the edge of her cage. The cable on the left belongs to the webcam, that's not usually there either.

Here she is chilling in her basking spot. She went back up when I closed the door of the cage.

And this is another angle

 

[jannb]

She still looks good. Very pretty little girl. My girl looks allot fatter.

 

[Djborx]

Thanks Jann! The thing is that in certain positions she looks so fat but then when she is walking or laying down she doesn't look so fat... so confusing!
How is yours doing? Has she started digging yet?

 

[jannb]

Thanks Jann! The thing is that in certain positions she looks so fat but then when she is walking or laying down she doesn't look so fat... so confusing!
How is yours doing? Has she started digging yet?

Nothing yet with my girl. I'm really getting worried.