Veiled female MBD, possible constipation

R

Riven

New Member
Please help, and feel free to help us make Pascal's environment better as well. I'll start with the fact that I'm a chinchilla breeder, I know very little about chameleons and I obviously did not do enough research before getting one. I should've know better. The cham is my daughters, it is in a part glass, part wire enclosure, we're about ready for an upgrade, and am thinking all mesh?

I did more reading this morning and found out that you should NOT use wood chip type substrates, is that correct?

The temps are around 90 during the day, 60 at night, humidity runs about 65-80 , feeding primarily crickets with a few meal worms off and on.

Today she was hanging oddly on her branches. I took her out and her back legs are not working properly. She tries to use them but she can't control them well, good tail grip and front legs are working well.

I am not sure on her age, she is about 8-9" long, we've had her about 2 months now and she's molted 3 times since we got her and grown about 3".

Her belly is very firm and she is round, if she was a chinchilla I'd say she was bloated.

Please help us save her, and help us prevent this and make her life better!
 
If yhour sure its a female, she could be full of eggs. especially since you say her belly is firm and round.
Does she have access to a laying bin. Unlike chinchs (who have to be mated to have babies), female chams can lay eggs without having been mated.
I would suggest locating jannb's profile on here and read her blog about egg laying.
Can you also post severa pics of her please?
one from the side, so we can see her belly.
and one of the back of the back feet, so we can verify gender.
and fill out the help form so we can take a look at what could cause this.
if it is eggs, and she has become egg bound, she will require a trip to the vet.
egg binding can be fatal. one of a few things happens at the vet, they will first confirm there are eggs by taking an xray. then if the eggs can be passed naturally, (meaning the shells have not fused together into one large egg glob) the vet can give her a shot of oxytocin to stimulate the egg laying process.
if the eggs have fused together, then surgery would be required to remove the eggs. if this is the case, you should have her spayed at this time too to prevent future egg problems.
I dont mean to scare you, but when its a cham, they tend to go downhill fast, and if its a female, and you dont know about their laying habits, it can creep up on you quick.
I hope your cham does well , and good luck, keep us posted.
 
I tried to do research on when they begin to lay but couldn't seem to find any answer. She has not been on the ground at all, which I read is something they usually do, she usually sits up on her perch by the light.

My exotic vet is out until Tuesday, I don't know of any other vets who even deal with exotics. The roundness is up further than I would anticipate eggs to be, but I'm not an expert on that either.

I will get a pic.
 
You say she is 8-9 inches long. is that from nose to vent, or nose to tip of tail? females can begin to produce and lay eggs around 6 months old.
If your girl is a girl, and she is 8-9 inches from nose to vent, then she sounds like she is definetly old enough to begin laying eggs.

If you can get a pic, that would help determine age and gender.
also, fill out the help form, so we can see if there is something in your husbandry in case it is not eggs.
 
Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - veiled female, unknown age, has grown about 3" since we got her less than 2 months ago, currently about 8-9" with her tail
* Handling - Once or twice per week for a short period
* Feeding - Her main diet is crickets gut loaded with orange and high protien cat food mix, occassional meal worms, less than 4 once a week
* Supplements - Dust with a calcium dust once a week with Fluker's
* Watering - Misting, once to twice daily, until large droplets form, we do see her drink
* Fecal Description - Daughter reports "black and white and yellow" "kind of like bird poop" if that helps, due to the substrate it is difficult to keep track.
* History - Got her at the pet store because there are no breeders that we could find in the state ( later found that you can actually ship them in the mail... )


Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Glass with screen
* Lighting - 12 hrs of light, lamp light, I can't find the box from the bulb and couldn't find the specs on it, it's a white bulb if that helps any.
* Temperature - top temps run about 90-95 in the day and down to 65 -70 at night, dial therm. she only goes down to eat, otherwise is always by the lamp
* Humidity - use dial, 65-80, maintained with live plants and daily or twice daily misting
* Plants - plants, potho, hoya, and can't remember the name of the other one, I did research safety first but you'll see it in the pic, she has not eaten any of the plants
* Placement - Cage is in my daughters room on a desk under a loft bed, low traffic, low noise
* Location - Nebraska


I will measure her nose to vent, and get pics here in a couple minutes, phone is charging. Thanks for all of the help I'm concerned that it appears her hind legs are lighter in color than normal. I will also try to get my mom to call the vet, she is friends with him so she may be able to get him to look at her sooner.
 
Okay, we can not find a ruler to save our lives here... I normally have one right in my drawer... But my friend and I are guessing 4" nose to vent, just a bit less than the width of my hand.

She will clamp her feet on my hand, but can't get them onto the branches. The pics make her look glow it the dark green... I'm sure you guys realize she's not really that green...

Oh, I she is a female, there are no spurs on her feets. Sorry for the sporadic posts, we have a horse show tomorrow so I've been in and out checking on her and such. We also have a "night bulb" if we should put that on her, we never have, just always the one. We used to have a beardie so we still have that from him.


pascal.jpg


pascalb.jpg


Oh... I don't feel good...

pascalc.jpg


And cage, we're getting ready to upgrade since she's growing so fast so any suggestions on a good one is great.

pascalscage.jpg
 
I'm sorry to have to say this, but I just don't know where to start.........
You need a uv bulb (reptisun or reptiglo 5.0 tube bulbs are best)....you need much more calcium powder (everyday, for every cricket) You need a powder with added vit. d3 for twice a month.
You should try to avoid giving any more protein than you need. Stop feeding the cat food or she'll get gout......
She has already got mbd (metabolic bone disease) from lack of vitamins.
The temps are much too high for a female veiled. 82F should be her basking (hottest) temp - she should be able to move to an area where it is only 70F if she feels like it.
Get her to a vet asap - I hope you have a good one......
Here is a caresheet with all the basic are info you need - https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/chameleonsinmyhouse/395-veiled-chameleon-care-sheet.html
 
ok, horseshow mom! I show horses so to me thats a compliment!
I dont have veileds, so you will need to find jannb's blogs, everything you will need to know is there.
just off the bat, looking at the pics:
substrate probably should be removed, too easy in ingest while hunting a cricket
she looks a lillte dehydrated, but that could be the pics
her belly looks wide to me, i dont do females, but she could be gravid, so you will need to read jannb's laying bin blog
heat might be a little high, but again its different for a veiled than mine
the more you feed, the higher the heat females will lay a clutch in shorter time.
the supps could be off, we can go thru those, i will look
mealworms are exoskeleton, so not many of those, try silk, horned or butterworms. little better nutrition as well. Crickets are the mainstay of their diet, 1/2 or 3 week is an ideal size/age.
all feeders you can have shipped, for cheaper
i know people do well with different kinds of cages, i.e mesh or glass or both, kinda depends on where you live
no lights on at nite, no heat either. they need dark and cooler temps
let me go read you post again!
anne
 
DavidBuchan said:
I'm sorry to have to say this, but I just don't know where to start.........
You need a uv bulb (reptisun or reptiglo 5.0 tube bulbs are best)....you need much more calcium powder (everyday, for every cricket) You need a powder with added vit. d3 for twice a month.
You should try to avoid giving any more protein than you need. Stop feeding the cat food or she'll get gout......
She has already got mbd (metabolic bone disease) from lack of vitamins.
The temps are much too high for a female veiled. 82F should be her basking (hottest) temp - she should be able to move to an area where it is only 70F if she feels like it.
Get her to a vet asap - I hope you have a good one......
Here is a caresheet with all the basic are info you need - https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/chameleonsinmyhouse/395-veiled-chameleon-care-sheet.html
Click to expand...

Completely agree, get her to a vet ASAP.
Check out the link above to learn how to properly take care of your girl.
 
Unfortunately your chamelon has MBD. Most likely not any sort of impaction and that is why she cannot use her legs. MBD is Metabolic bone disease.
As quoted from chamworld.com-"Metabolic Bone Disorder (MBD), aside from dehydration, is another most common death of chameleons in captivity. It is extremely fatal if not treated as soon as possible. If treated early, the chameleon can survive and live a quite normal life. Unfortunately, the condition of the limbs is irreversible. The best way to cure MBD is to prevent it from happening at all.
MBD is a degenerative disease caused by poor ratio of Calcium and Phosphorus in the chameleon’s body. The chameleon’s bone structure is destroyed progressively, until the bone no longer able to support the chameleon’s body. Many numbers of causes can lead to MBD. But, the most common thing comes from poor nutrition, poor or lack of supplementing, and the absence of UVB light in the husbandry. Unfortunately, captive breed chameleons often get this debilitating sickness due to the owner’s lack of knowledge in the proper caring facts" Do you have a UVB light? If not, you need to get one right away. It is CRITICAL.Sorry to give you this news. I would get your cham to a vet immediately. A vet that knows chameleons. He/she will be able to give calcium injections which will help the bones. As stated above, the damage is done, but you can prevent it from getting worse. Good luck to you.....
 
Definitely MBD, also depending on age, forget about impaction, that female is most likely chalk full of eggs, and very possibly egg bound. I am so sorry about her, she needs a vet asap, natural sunlight, and a bit of a prayer.
Good luck to you
 
Riven said:
Thanks for your input, but I don't think that MBD explains her very extended and firm belly...
Click to expand...

It does, however, explain her deformed (broken) limbs which explains her difficulty moving and gripping. As mentioned the distension is probably eggs.

Here's a link to Jannb's blog on laying bins and the whole egg laying process.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/jannb/345-egg-laying-laying-bin.html

If your regular vet is out of town, maybe the office can recommend someone with chameleon experience.

She needs a vet. I don't know if it's possible for a female with so many broken limbs to successfully deliver eggs. I do know that even if she can do it, it's going to be pretty hard on her.
 
yes, sorry I forgot to mention the egg part! I was worrying about the MBD. Her right front leg looks as if it could be broken.
 
Riven said:
Thanks for your input, but I don't think that MBD explains her very extended and firm belly...
Click to expand...

Actually it can. Without having enough calcium for her own bones she may not have enough for proper egg development. If the eggs are softer than they should be because the shells don't have enough calcium it could make it much more difficult to lay them. Pushing out hard eggs gives the muscles something to push on when they contract. If they're soft the eggs just kind of squish under muscular contractions and don't actually progress in any direction. In addition to this, calcium is needed for vigorous muscle contractions that would be needed to push eggs out (especially if the eggs aren't hard enough) so she most likely doesn't have the strength to lay the eggs even if she wanted to. If she's not using her legs well it may be because she is so full of eggs that they are impinging on the nerves to hindlimbs. That can happen easily when the abdomen is so large.

There are many changes that need to be made faster than ASAP to give her a chance to live, and one them is veterinary attention. She is huge, and if those are eggs she most certainly eggbound due to her MBD and she needs an injection of fluids, calcium and then oxytocin to give her what she needs to try to lay them. And if she cannot she will need surgery to get them out or she will die. If those are not eggs then something else if very wrong, and an impaction is likely. In that case she needs vet help as well, and potentially surgery to relieve it. Unfortunately the damage caused by the MBD is already done and can't be completely reversed, but its progression can be stopped. She needs UVB, oral liquid calcium and well gutloaded feeders with a proper laying bin TODAY. And you should find a competent reptile vet with reptile experience immediately. You should also read as much as you can of the links provided by people here so you can catch up to the things she should have had in the start...
 
I can get whatever we need for her, that is not a problem, but what can I get at say Walmart for RIGHT NOW? We have NO petstores here. We live in the middle of nowhere. The nearest petco or petsmart is 3 hrs from us. Give me a link to what I need to order and I can order it, but that won't help right now, because it will take time to get here. Is there anyway to give her UBV light sooner than it will take to order it?

I called the vet, he said get her light, but is unable to see her until mid next week because he's not even home, the nearest other reptile/herp vet is over 2 1/2 hrs away ( he's an hr from me now as well) , I have school Monday and Tuesday during the day.

I picked up a liquid calcium stuff at the store, its' for people, can I give this to her? I can dose it, I'm a nurse so I can figure it, but is it okay to give it?

It's overcast, should we put her outside?

Would she be gravid being so small? Someone earlier said 8-9" nose to vent, she's only about 4.

We've been trying to give her good care, but unfortunately there is a lot of bad information online and it can be hard to sort through. When I look at her legs, they don't look any different than when we first got her, so is it possible that this has been going on for a long time?
 
Riven said:
I can get whatever we need for her, that is not a problem, but what can I get at say Walmart for RIGHT NOW?
Click to expand...

Liquid calcium, a deep trashcan and playsand - the second two are for her laying bin. Get online and order a UVB light now, and get overnight shipping so you can at least get it by Tuesday and in the meantime try to get as much unfiltered sunlight as you can, even when it's a little overcast UVB rays are still getting through. They can be gravid very young if not kept properly. Her temperatures are too high for that age, and that can trigger early egg development, as can overfeeding.

MBD takes time to manifest, so yes it has been going on for a while.

You need to be gutloading your crickets better:
Gutloading is the process of working through the food chain to feed the prey animals the nutrition that your insectivore pet needs to replicate what they would eat in nature. Crickets are basically just water and chitin (not very nutritious or digestible) and the pet stores only feed them cardboard, or potato at most, so feeding crickets directly after you get them from the pet store or vendor is not providing much in the way of nutrition to your pet. Supplementing with a calcium and/or multivitamin powder is important, but not sufficient alone for proper nutrition in any species. Gut loading can't be done in all feeders but is very easy in crickets and super worms - two common feeder bugs.

How do you chose what to use? Gutloading ingredients should be chosen that are higher in calcium than phosphorus. High phosphorus levels in the food impedes calcium absorption. Inadequate dietary calcium leads to metabolic bone disease. Commercially available gutloads (such as Fluker Farms Cricket Food) are not balanced or sufficient for good nutrition in any species. Ideally there should be a wet and dry component to your gut load:

Good Wet Gutloading Ingredients: dandelion leaves, collard greens, mustard greens, turnip greens, escarole lettuce, butternut squash, carrots, mango, alfalfa sprouts, oranges, blueberries, raspberries, sweet potato, strawberries, hibiscus leaves and flowers, papaya

Good Dry Gutload Ingredients: bee pollen, alfalfa powder, kelp powder, brewer’s yeast, wheat germ, raw uncooked sunflower seeds, raw uncooked pumpkin seeds, hemp seeds, small amounts of whole grain cereals, spirulina algae, tortoise pellets

Foods to AVOID: Broccoli, spinach, beets, and parsley, have large amounts of oxalic acids which bind calcium absorption. Lettuces and cabbage do not have any significant nutritional value. Also, avoid things like dog food, cat food, and fish flakes which are high in animal proteins which can cause kidney damage. Feeding such things like pinky-mice, fuzzies, and feeder anoles that are extremely high in fat and protein content is harmful to your chameleon's health, bones and organs that can lead to serious illnesses like gout, edema, organ failure and fatality.


This site has nutritional info on many commonly available fruits and veggies to help guide you in choosing good gut loading ingredients: http://www.greenigsociety.org/foodchart.htm
Sandrachameleon has many more blog entries on gut loading and nutrition.
Click to expand...

It's possible that she's not gravid, but she is still in a bad way and needs UVB, better nutrition, oral liquid calcium for her MBD despite the other problem, which needs to be addressed by a vet sooner rather than later somehow.
 
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