Possible Follicular Stasis

[Beman]

Great questions, this is what we talked about at the vet:

So I do not understand why she would not be on a 12 hour light cycle anyways. I have never heard of anyone changing this up with a female. Unless they are breeding them. I am assuming she has had these follicles since July and should have laid them in August. If you recall, after I got a solar meter a few months ago I realized that her UVB hood was not effective and she was not getting proper UVB for who knows how long. The current assumption between knowing the UVB was not correct and due to her blood work she did not have proper calcium and nutrients in her body to form the follicles into eggs. The goal in changing her light schedule was to hopefully trick her body that its 'winter time' and is not time to breed so she will reabsorb them. Since giving her a boost in vitamins and the liquid calcium 2 weeks ago she has started to form the follicles into eggs. The vet suggested that adjusting her light schedule halfway through the hear to mimic winter would help her not lay eggs at least as often in the future on top of the low temps/diet. I don't know how helpful that would be but I'm willing to try it if others on here also think it would be safe/helpful.
I do not understand the feeding her daily either. Everyone I have met that has them on a reduced diet with lower temps does not adjust feeding until after the clutch is laid. Then they will feed them well for a week. She is already producing a much smaller clutch with 6 eggs. I think the idea in feeding her daily right now while she is developing the follicles into eggs would be to continue to give her body nutrients so that she does not have to pull them from her body since she was depleted to begin with. Once she lays her eggs I would go back to her regular feeding schedule.
I disagree with changing her lay bin material. moss and paper hamster bedding you will get an impaction issue when she eats it. This just seems crazy to even suggest. I would do half dirt half sand. And put a plant in it this way it is not just a huge open tub for her to target. Some also like to dig against the roots of the plant. Agreed on the lay bin, I don't see my girl digging in any of the options given. I am going to re-do her lay bin today with the play sand I currently have and a really good organic dirt I just got a few weeks ago. She does have a fern currently in her lay bin which I will keep in there and I may add a small pothos as well. If I remember correctly I think I put a few rocks in the lay bin as well...I'll find out today obviously. I believe the reason the vet is suggesting no sand is because she found sand in her digestive tract in an ultra sound about 4 weeks ago and she was worried about possible impaction.
No reason not to give liquid calcium.

Why are you looking into spaying her? has she become egg bound in the past? Spaying them can be pretty intense and if you do not have a vet with a lot of experience in this then I would not even attempt it. @jannb has had a few females she has spayed but she had a vet that was extremely skilled with this. She can give you more feedback on doing this and the risks. I know...I literally hate the idea of her going through a surgery but I'm also worried with her current condition if we will run into issues in the future. I am hoping not. I guess I don't know what to do about this, I want her to live as long a life as possible and I'm scared of spaying her and her dying or her not getting spayed and she dies with her next clutch. The vet is not pushing spaying her but is saying it might need to be an option based on how this clutch goes.

I'd love to hear your continued thoughts on this

Well it all sounds valid about the light cycle. I still would not feed her daily a ton of food but that is me. Right now her body is calcifying the eggs so I would think every other day feeding would suffice without overfeeding daily. Again just me. lol. I personally think its nuts to put the other material in the lay bin. At least with eating the sand the particles are tiny so they will pass through the system. Unlike what the vet suggested which would cause a major impaction if she were to eat them.

Here is where I get confused and I believe I mentioned it before. With females on a reduced diet they can reobsorb their eggs so this ends up making it so they do not lay at all or very rarely. I know you are worried and you have to make the best decision for you so do that in the end but I would be extremely cautious with spaying her. Talk to everyone you can that has done this. The outcome is not always a good thing.

 

[janjan20]

I have one female (3.5yrs) and this is the first year I think she has absorbed a clutch or two. I weigh her weekly once she is receptive. She was due to lay back in April and her max weigh was around 59g. She didn’t lay any eggs and was receptive again in June, her max weight was around 62g. I thought she would lay sometime then but she never did. I checked her weight a couple weeks later and she was back down to her “normal” weight 55-56g. I do notice she gets a pooch in her abdominal area so I believe there is something forming inside. She became receptive again in October and she should be due to lay any day now. She has been demolishing her plants. For her that is another sign I look for as well. Right now she’s around 65g (prob less bc of all the plants she’s eaten). I have kept her on the same feeding and light schedule, so far with no issues. Her lay bin is bioactive but I did have to add more sand bc she didn’t like the dirt mix with her last clutch. Hope this helps.

 

[jannb]

Where do you live and who is your vet?

 

[elizaann2]

Well it all sounds valid about the light cycle. I still would not feed her daily a ton of food but that is me. Right now her body is calcifying the eggs so I would think every other day feeding would suffice without overfeeding daily. Again just me. lol. I personally think its nuts to put the other material in the lay bin. At least with eating the sand the particles are tiny so they will pass through the system. Unlike what the vet suggested which would cause a major impaction if she were to eat them.

Here is where I get confused and I believe I mentioned it before. With females on a reduced diet they can reobsorb their eggs so this ends up making it so they do not lay at all or very rarely. I know you are worried and you have to make the best decision for you so do that in the end but I would be extremely cautious with spaying her. Talk to everyone you can that has done this. The outcome is not always a good thing.

Ya I have mixed feelings about the feeding daily. It makes sense since she was so depleted from her nutrients earlier but I worry this will make for bigger issues for her possible next clutch. I normally feed her today and tomorrow anyways so I have time for others to chime in on their thoughts and experiences as well. I think that if I did feed her daily it would be like 2 bugs or maybe even 1 bug with the 3-4 small feeders on her regular feeding schedule so its not a ton of extra food. I mainly feed her bsfl since I can get such small feeders for her and depending on how long ive had my crickets or other feeders they can get quite large.

Agreed with the substrate for the lay bin. I'll stick with what I know and what others on here do as its been proven to be safe.

And also agreed, if I do spay her it will be a last resort thing for sure. Its not a decision to make lightly I understand. We will see how this goes, I am hopeful that she will lay this clutch easily knowing that her issue was a lack of nutrients because her UVB hood was not working properly and now all those issues have been resolved.

 

[elizaann2]

Where do you live and who is your vet?

Im in Utah, my main vet is Dr. Blaine - she works in a typical 9-5 office and does not have the necessary facilities to do a spay should my girl need it. Dr. Blaine referred me to Dr. Lofgren who works in a facility that can do hospitalization, surgery and other more intensive care if needed.

 

[jannb]

Do you know if Dr. Lofgren has ever done the egg removal and spay successfully on a chameleon? I’d recommend asking that question.

 

[elizaann2]

Do you know if Dr. Lofgren has ever done the egg removal and spay successfully on a chameleon? I’d recommend asking that question.

Ya she has done the surgery successfully many times and has worked with chameleons quite a bit. She also doesn’t recommend the surgery unless it’s the only option.

 

[elizaann2]

Ya she has done the surgery successfully many times and has worked with chameleons quite a bit. She also doesn’t recommend the surgery unless it’s the only option.

That was actually my first question for her when we met.

 

[elizaann2]

Lay bin is done. There’s two root balls in there and some rocks in a bottom back corner.

 

[elizaann2]

Hi All, I wanted to share an update on what I'm noticing about my girl. She has been basking under the UVB a lot lately (assuming she is working on forming those eggs). I also noticed she is blinking/cleaning her eyes a lot. I spent hours watching her on her 'chamera' yesterday and saw a few times when she would do the blink/clean thing with her eye and then just keep it closed for a while. She never had both eyes closed at the same time but would occasionally close one eye while the other stayed alert. Where this is BOTH eyes she is doing this with I am assuming this may be vitamin related.

Just a reminder that her UVB hood was not working for who knows how long and she was not getting proper UVB. She did get vitamin shots at her last appointment and one a month ago to give her a good vitamin boost due to her labs. The vet instructed me not to give her any Multivitamins or D3 until the 15th of this month so we don't over-dose her. Because I am now just noticing the eye thing I don't honestly know if this is new, if its been happening for a while and I just now caught it or what to help me determine if this is in relation to her vitamin shot, or my error in relation to her UVB light/hood not working.

What should I be watching for? Besides continuing with her typical supplementation schedule is there anything else I can do for her? I will of course be calling the vet to inform them as soon as they open. Attached you'll find a pic of my girl today, let me know if you see anything out of the norm.

Also, she has been eating, and pooping fine, other than the blinky eye clean thing and acting like her eyes are bothering her she has been behaving normally.

Humidity levels don't get below 45-50%

Thanks!!

 

[Beman]

Hi All, I wanted to share an update on what I'm noticing about my girl. She has been basking under the UVB a lot lately (assuming she is working on forming those eggs). I also noticed she is blinking/cleaning her eyes a lot. I spent hours watching her on her 'chamera' yesterday and saw a few times when she would do the blink/clean thing with her eye and then just keep it closed for a while. She never had both eyes closed at the same time but would occasionally close one eye while the other stayed alert. Where this is BOTH eyes she is doing this with I am assuming this may be vitamin related.

Just a reminder that her UVB hood was not working for who knows how long and she was not getting proper UVB. She did get vitamin shots at her last appointment and one a month ago to give her a good vitamin boost due to her labs. The vet instructed me not to give her any Multivitamins or D3 until the 15th of this month so we don't over-dose her. Because I am now just noticing the eye thing I don't honestly know if this is new, if its been happening for a while and I just now caught it or what to help me determine if this is in relation to her vitamin shot, or my error in relation to her UVB light/hood not working.

What should I be watching for? Besides continuing with her typical supplementation schedule is there anything else I can do for her? I will of course be calling the vet to inform them as soon as they open. Attached you'll find a pic of my girl today, let me know if you see anything out of the norm.

Also, she has been eating, and pooping fine, other than the blinky eye clean thing and acting like her eyes are bothering her she has been behaving normally.

Humidity levels don't get below 45-50%

Thanks!!

Ugg I won't let them do vitamin shots... I have seen too many weird things after these in threads. Could be from the shot. Could be she has something in the eye. Might try a longer misting this evening.

 

[elizaann2]

Ugg I won't let them do vitamin shots... I have seen too many weird things after these in threads. Could be from the shot. Could be she has something in the eye. Might try a longer misting this evening.

Crap...I wish I would have known that before because I wouldn't have done them.... She has had 2 shots. Are there other things I should look out for if it is the shots?

I can't be sure but my gut is its the shots, I haven't been 'monitoring her like a hawk' like I have lately so its possible this has been going on for a minute but I watch my babies all so closely I feel like I would have noticed it before now. Do you think this would be something that will balance itself out in time?

I have adjusted her afternoon misting session to 3 minutes long, should I set it for longer?

 

[Beman]

Crap...I wish I would have known that before because I wouldn't have done them.... She has had 2 shots. Are there other things I should look out for if it is the shots?

I can't be sure but my gut is its the shots, I haven't been 'monitoring her like a hawk' like I have lately so its possible this has been going on for a minute but I watch my babies all so closely I feel like I would have noticed it before now. Do you think this would be something that will balance itself out in time?

I have adjusted her afternoon misting session to 3 minutes long, should I set it for longer?

Can you find out what exactly is in the shot for fat soluble vitamins and at what levels? If overdose issue it is a matter of time for levels to reduce. This can take anywhere from 4-8 weeks from what I have read. I would wait a full 4 weeks before using your multivitamin though.

 

[elizaann2]

Can you find out what exactly is in the shot for fat soluble vitamins and at what levels? If overdose issue it is a matter of time for levels to reduce. This can take anywhere from 4-8 weeks from what I have read. I would wait a full 4 weeks before using your multivitamin though.

Ok I will call and ask them. They are not open until Wednesday.

 

[MzLaurie]

First of all…I’m not a vet but only give my best opinion from experience, what I’ve learned, etc. No worries at all, I appreciate the experienced keepers input though

You said…”Another interesting thing was the ultrasound revealed that she has sand in her digestive system....it was recommended to me to remove the lay bins for now so she does not continue to ingest the sand/dirt mixture”…the problem with removing the bin is that she won’t have a place to lay the eggs. It may be that they eat the sand substrate looking for nutrients they need for the egg production…no proof. I agree, I felt weird about taking her lay bin out myself because IF those follicles turn into eggs where would she lay them? I'll take it out if others on here too also feel I should remove it but for now I do worry about doing that.

You said…”The question is why is she not developing those follicles into eggs. We went over my husbandry at length and she did not note any concerns. In her blood work she noted that her phosphorus and calcium levels were quite off which could be early signs of, if I remember correctly, kidney disease”…there are so many veileds that suffer from follicular stasis and egg binding that there have been several studies trying to solve the problem. They still don’t have the answers. However, years ago I figured out that by controlling the diet (making it smaller) and decreasing the basking temperature to 80F it would, at the least, reduce the size of the clutches and could even completely stop egg production….so no more follicular stasis or dystocia. Veiled females lived to be at least 6 years old or even 7 instead of the 1 to 3 years they were living according to others. I’m not sure why this would indicate kidney disease. I am not sure either, it is quite possible that I misunderstood her or missed some information she told me. I am worried about her (even though she looks perfectly fine) and because of that I won't process as much info as is passed on to me. I did my best to take notes but the vet was a very fast talker When I see her again on Friday for the check up I have a list of questions I am going to ask her and things I want her to clarify for me again.

You said…”I do remember that her calcium was high and phosphorus was low. I don’t remember the exact numbers though”…calcium/phos ratio should be 2:1. Ok that is good to know, I'm sure I'll get the numbers on Friday at the latest and will share that with you.

You said…”This is my regular feeding schedule for her:
Monday
Wednesday
Friday
3-4 small feeders
Saturday treat bug day - 2 wax or supers
Staple feeders are bsfl, bsf, dubia, silkworms, crickets”…if your insects are truly small, this should be low enough to slow or even stop egg production…IMHO. What’s the basking temperature. Yes that is what I have been doing, smaller feeders. If they are on what I would consider the larger side I may only feed her 2 feeders for example. Like if the crickets are a little bigger she would only get 2. I try not to do that though because I feel like she is disappointed at only two feeders . Her basking temp is strictly 80 degrees, no hotter. Debating on going down to 78 though - what do you think?

You said…”I noticed receptive colors the beginning of July”…
”The first clutch I believe was in sept 2022, she had 31 fully calcified eggs
Second clutch was January 28th 2023, with 24 fully calcified eggs”…first and second clutches were the right time apart. Timing sounds ok for the next receptive period, more or less…so she should have laid eggs near the beginning of August…I think. It could be that she skipped a clutch and is now working on the next one. I need to go over my math one more time to be sure. Urrgghh! I think my brain is getting old!! . Ya that's right, she should have laid in August according to my calculations. So I guess if they lay every 4 months or so she could be working on the 4th clutch...? I just don't know if they are the same follicles from the '3rd clutch' she never laid. Could that be a thing? Haha no worries, I feel that so hard this week......I appreciate your time and knowledge

A trick I started doing once phones got capable of it is I record every session with a doctor or vet. I tell them that I prefer not to take notes and dont want to miss anything so please let me know when you are ready to explain everything.This lets the dr know when to start and i have never had an issue with any doctor or vet.