Viatimin A Deficiencies in Cameleons

[JaxyGirl]

This is a great and informative thread. I've been so worried about my 1 year old panther and went to the vet yesterday. He's showing signs of Vitamin A deficiency and the vet encouraged me to vary his diet and supplement his food with vitamin A powder. Also she suggested I increase his misting and the overall humidity of his surroundings.
Lips isn't eating much, nor drinking water and is very lethargic. He's keeping his eyes pretty much closed all day and I think they look swollen.

I have never gut loaded my crickets with any cat food, raw tuna, etc. but this seems like a good thing to do.

I am in an area where finding a real reptile vet isn't easy so I'm sort of concerned about the advice I was given.
Any other advice any of you have to help me would be great. I'm sad and just want to do the right thing for him.

Try offering him (small) pieces of raw shrim, chicken or fish once or twice a week and see how he likes it. Does your Cham feed by hand or take food off of tweezers?
The way I started my chams off was to cut raw shrimp into small strips and shape them like a worm (the size of the super worms or horn worms etc that he was used to eating) then I would wiggle it in front of him and he would shoot at it thinking it was a worm. You can do this with other meets as well.
Currently my new juvenile panthers won't take it this way so disguise it buy holding a small piece of shrimp, fish or chicken with a feeder in tweezers. My Cham shoots the cricket and gets the meat an they really seem to enjoy it.
I eat fresh fish and chicken at least twice a week and that's when my chams get small pieces. They don't get it every day.

 

[JoeVet]

I'm really curious as to how Chameleons get access to raw meats in the wild? I'm also curious as to how they don't get sick eating this raw meat they happen to come by.

Chameleons are known to eat other lizards and if large enough small birds. "Meat" doen't need to mean cow. It could be pinkie mouse. I know there are those who feed pinkie to their females with the belief it provides calcium. In reality they are not great sources of calcium but they are terrific sources of vitamin A.

 

[JaxyGirl]

This is a great and informative thread. I've been so worried about my 1 year old panther and went to the vet yesterday. He's showing signs of Vitamin A deficiency and the vet encouraged me to vary his diet and supplement his food with vitamin A powder. Also she suggested I increase his misting and the overall humidity of his surroundings.
Lips isn't eating much, nor drinking water and is very lethargic. He's keeping his eyes pretty much closed all day and I think they look swollen.

I have never gut loaded my crickets with any cat food, raw tuna, etc. but this seems like a good thing to do.

I am in an area where finding a real reptile vet isn't easy so I'm sort of concerned about the advice I was given.
Any other advice any of you have to help me would be great. I'm sad and just want to do the right thing for him.

I do offer small amounts of high quality protein dry cat food such as Iams (which my cat eats and he's 18 and my 15" Oscar eats and she's 9)'with my crickets gut load. I don't offer any raw meats to my crickets because it spoils too fast and it can lead to the build up of bacteria. But I have fed my chams little bits of fresh tuna

 

[JaxyGirl]

Chameleons are known to eat other lizards and if large enough small birds. "Meat" doen't need to mean cow. It could be pinkie mouse. I know there are those who feed pinkie to their females with the belief it provides calcium. In reality they are not great sources of calcium but they are terrific sources of vitamin A.

I've read that about pinky mice also. I can't find the article that I saw it in.
But if I rember correctly feeding one pinky mouse every 4-6 months gives Pleanty of Preformed vitamin A because it is stored in the liver for 5-6 months.

 

[SocialNumb]

Chameleons are known to eat other lizards and if large enough small birds. "Meat" doen't need to mean cow. It could be pinkie mouse. I know there are those who feed pinkie to their females with the belief it provides calcium. In reality they are not great sources of calcium but they are terrific sources of vitamin A.

That's right. I didn't think about other lizards. I've caught mine shooting for a small lizard that was on the outside of the cage before. I also have seen Chams on youtube eating pinkies. Completely forgot.

As for fish, for anyone to answer, what about the mercury found in them? From what I've read mercury is on the rise in just about every fish we eat.

http://center4research.org/healthy-...h-be-dangerous-the-facts-about-methylmercury/

http://epi.publichealth.nc.gov/oee/mercury/safefish.html

Cham eating mouse: watch at your own discretion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na4RnRdQdik

 

[Carlton]

That's right. I didn't think about other lizards. I've caught mine shooting for a small lizard that was on the outside of the cage before. I also have seen Chams on youtube eating pinkies. Completely forgot.

As for fish, for anyone to answer, what about the mercury found in them? From what I've read mercury is on the rise in just about every fish we eat.

http://center4research.org/healthy-...h-be-dangerous-the-facts-about-methylmercury/

http://epi.publichealth.nc.gov/oee/mercury/safefish.html

Cham eating mouse: watch at your own discretion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na4RnRdQdik

Wild chams may not be eating the "meat" sources themselves, but their prey probably does...you know, all those scavenging insects and opportunists that feed on carrion.

As for mercury, you aren't going to have much if any control over that, though some fish accumulate less than others. Longer lived species that are harvested at larger sizes can have higher mercury levels.

 

[Carlton]

I've read that about pinky mice also. I can't find the article that I saw it in.
But if I rember correctly feeding one pinky mouse every 4-6 months gives Pleanty of Preformed vitamin A because it is stored in the liver for 5-6 months.

But, this would still be a problem for smaller species. A pinky mouse might be a huge mass for a jax or the smaller fischeri to digest.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

What I'm talking about is changing the way we think our chams diet should be and start giving them what they need by adding a little real Preformed Vitamen A to your chams diet (along with their feeders) a couple times a week in the form of real fresh fish, shrimp, chicken and meat. This is how chams ate in the wild. By doing so it might just improve your chams health now and prevent disease in the future.

<Pokes his head out of his cave, thinking what is all this ruckus?>

Ummm. Honestly I thought all this was old news.

Back in the 80's My Parson's ate.. well.... whatever the hell offered.

I lost a day gecko once.... I think I told this story where I brought one home to release it in the free range to catch loose crickets and my male Parson's had an $80 snack in seconds. Total meat protein...

My dad fed two hummingbirds to it... I wasn't pleased but it ate them. (And got a full round of Panacur and stuff for the parasites as a results...thanks dad)

I started feeding my Parson's one fuzzy mouse a month. The animals never had any kind of nutritional issues. Yes I fed my insects fresh veggies but I also used cat food if I didn't have any. Yes I used straight calcium, for you youngsters out there imagine buying a piece of cuttlebone used for birds to wear down their beaks...then grinding that up into a powder. Back then we didn't have containers of ready made calcium.

Since we didn't know what vitamin's they did need...they got a little of everything twice a month. The only real thing I had going for us was the understanding that a little goes a long way so not to overdo it


Nice topic.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Wild chams may not be eating the "meat" sources themselves, but their prey probably does...you know, all those scavenging insects and opportunists that feed on carrion.

This! For my smaller chams I tried to follow what I did with the larger ones. Since I couldn't feed a large prey item I had to come up with something else.

I used to leave a small piece of sliced roast beef in with superworms and some roaches. They ate anything. Made sense to me back then.


I also hatched out Anoles, my Jacksons went nuts over baby Anoles or baby house geckos.


Stop looking at me funny! This crap worked!

 

[Lovereps]

This! For my smaller chams I tried to follow what I did with the larger ones. Since I couldn't feed a large prey item I had to come up with something else.

I used to leave a small piece of sliced roast beef in with superworms and some roaches. They ate anything. Made sense to me back then.


I also hatched out Anoles, my Jacksons went nuts over baby Anoles or baby house geckos.


Stop looking at me funny! This crap worked!

Not bad suggestions.....
Makes sense to get some animal ingredients into the bugs.

Hmm, maybe next time a Jackson's gives birth unexpectedly in the winter, the babies should be given to a bunch of cham foster parents, instead of me panicking to find FF Cultures locally when temps are so cold that even Josh's frogs won't ship.

(Calm down people, I'm kidding.)

Had a couple of Senegals back in the bad old days when UV lighting was not recognized as a necessity (or even a good idea)---and Nekton was the only vitamin manufacturer for reptiles.

Glad things have moved along to where we are now.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

I hope more people chime in with their unconventional methods of successful chamkeeping.

 

[Carlton]

Pokes his head out of his cave, thinking what is all this ruckus?>

Yes I fed my insects fresh veggies but I also used cat food if I didn't have any. Yes I used straight calcium, for you youngsters out there imagine buying a piece of cuttlebone used for birds to wear down their beaks...then grinding that up into a powder. Back then we didn't have containers of ready made calcium.

Yep, sounds familiar! I remember making these big mixes of all sorts of stuff for my insects (whole grain pasta, Total cereal, fish flakes, cat or dog kibble, chick starter, aquatic turtle food, plus whatever fruit and veggie trimmings I had around, and spending a LOT of time smashing cuttlebone or the cheapo petshop bird mineral blocks with a hammer.


Since we didn't know what vitamin's they did need...they got a little of everything twice a month. The only real thing I had going for us was the understanding that a little goes a long way so not to overdo it

Its good to revisit old ideas if only to re-focus our thoughts that may have gone wandering down more remote side roads. Sometimes a basic biological common sense makes...er...sense!

 

[kinyonga]

JaxyGirl...I did not say or suggest that you suggested using vitamin powders in gutload or on insects nor large amounts of vitamin A to treat illnesses. I understood exactly what you were suggesting...i was just pointing out the dangers of prEformed vitamin A from supplements because people should know that.

Dratted spell check changed my words "I would be interested in reading the studies that veileds are just as suseptible" to "Do be...". I still would like to read the papers that say this. I would also like to read the papers saying what enzymes they lack.

JaxyGirl said "The question is why are these chams developing these problems when the majority of the owners are providing calcium, vitamin D and correct UVB lighting and we'll fed feeders"...so the question I still have is why do people like me have no issues with MBD or eyes or glands and we do not use any prEformed vitamin A. We should be having deficiency issues if what you are saying is true. You said you don't have the answer because you don't know the species I keep, the ages, the life span or the husbandry...imnnot about to go into all the husbandry because I've posted it frequently...but it's been many species...some of them included...chamaeleo chamaeleons...almost all lived to be over 4 years of age back in the 90's including the WC's I started off with....veileds...females almost all live/d to over 6, males even longer...panthers, dwarf jacksons, and quite a few others....similar results.

JaxyGirl said..."Thats a good question because as the owners and care keepers of captive chameleons it is our job to know how to provide the most nutritional diet that is closest to their natural diet as possible. We already know that different species of chams need different things however they are all suseptible to vitamin A deficiencies. There is a huge connection between common health issues such as MBD, URI, Mouth Rot and other ailments that begin with a dietary deficiency and progress to life threatening diseases because the chameleon does not have the ability to fight diseases due to malnutrition. I wanted to know why these diseases are so common even though most of us are gut loading our feeders correctly, dusting our feeders and providing the correct lighting? There must be a reason or reasons right?!One of these common threads that I found is Vitamin A deficiency. I wanted to know why? So I did some research that I found was very eye opening. It is up to the Cham owner if they want to add fish chicken or meat in small quantities to their chams diet which in turn provides natural Preformed Vitamin A and other vitamins and minerals that they are not getting from the typical gut loaded feeders"...still want to see the papers that show that all these problems are the result of hypovitaminosis A. Also what do you mean the chameleons can't fight the diseases because of malnutrition?

Interesting thread!

 

[JaxyGirl]

<Pokes his head out of his cave, thinking what is all this ruckus?>

Ummm. Honestly I thought all this was old news.

Back in the 80's My Parson's ate.. well.... whatever the hell offered.

I lost a day gecko once.... I think I told this story where I brought one home to release it in the free range to catch loose crickets and my male Parson's had an $80 snack in seconds. Total meat protein...

My dad fed two hummingbirds to it... I wasn't pleased but it ate them. (And got a full round of Panacur and stuff for the parasites as a results...thanks dad)

I started feeding my Parson's one fuzzy mouse a month. The animals never had any kind of nutritional issues. Yes I fed my insects fresh veggies but I also used cat food if I didn't have any. Yes I used straight calcium, for you youngsters out there imagine buying a piece of cuttlebone used for birds to wear down their beaks...then grinding that up into a powder. Back then we didn't have containers of ready made calcium.

Since we didn't know what vitamin's they did need...they got a little of everything twice a month. The only real thing I had going for us was the understanding that a little goes a long way so not to overdo it


Nice topic.

Hey Ralph, it's nice to see you on here! It's been a while since I've seen any of your posts. You have always shed light on contrivercial topics and it's great to hear about your experiences with chams in the past and present

 

[JaxyGirl]

Not bad suggestions.....
Makes sense to get some animal ingredients into the bugs.

Hmm, maybe next time a Jackson's gives birth unexpectedly in the winter, the babies should be given to a bunch of cham foster parents, instead of me panicking to find FF Cultures locally when temps are so cold that even Josh's frogs won't ship.

(Calm down people, I'm kidding.)

Had a couple of Senegals back in the bad old days when UV lighting was not recognized as a necessity (or even a good idea)---and Nekton was the only vitamin manufacturer for reptiles.

Glad things have moved along to where we are now.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

I hope more people chime in with their unconventional methods of successful chamkeeping.

Lol! You had me going with the babies thing! Very funny in a morbid kinda way

 

[JaxyGirl]

Kinyonga,

Whatever you're doing with your chams, it must be something right and that is to be commended! And I would definitely keep doing what you're doing because it's working

Unfortunately, many people aren't as fortunate as you are. We hear about chameleon sicknesses and deaths on here everyday that most..I'm not saying all.. Could have been prevented with a well balanced diet.

It was late when I wrote this last night but, what I was trying to say that malnutrition is one of the major causes of disease because it lowers the chameleons immune system, their organs don't perform correctly, they can't metabolize their food correctly, they usually stop eating and drinking and that leads to diseases and bacterial infections etc. Many sick chameleons don't do well during medical treatment of these diseases because the chameleon is usually too sick and weak to fight the disease due to malnutrition. In essense it's a viscious circle.

I never said that all these problems were the result of just a Vitamin A deficiency. I said that it was malnutrition and "One of these common threads that I found is Vitamin A deficiency" My point of this whole thread is that chameleons need a balanced diet that includes Preformed Vitamin A along with all the other vitamins and minerals in their food including, Calcium and D3 and that most chameleon diets have very little or no Preformed Vitamin A that is enough to sustain the health of a cham and by adding some into their diet would be bennificial. A chameleon needs a balanced diet including Preformed Vitamin A, Calcium, Vitamin D3, along with other minerals and nutrients and UVB lights in order to remain healthy.
Here's some good research to read.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jpn.12206/full

Here is a google book and the link referring to the Veild Chameleon and Vitamin A deficiencies
And Some pictures of pages from the book in the link below.
https://books.google.com/books?id=7...min a deficiency in veiled chameleons&f=false
Reptile Medicine and Surgery
edited by Stephen J. Divers, Douglas R. Mader

 

[JaxyGirl]

another page

 

[JaxyGirl]

And one more

 

[kinyonga]

Increasing fat content may increase vitamin A in Acheta domestica...
http://nagonline.net/1635/influence-diet-time-fat-retinol-concentrations-adult-feeder-crickets/

 

[Crashbandit05]

I find this thread very interesting as I am still gaining knowledge before I purchase a chameleon. I see on some sites like lllreptiles that they offer "carniverous" "omnivorous " gut loading for different reptile species. Would it be beneficial to possibly supplement a carnivorous gut load every once in a while so our chams do get the preformed vit a from "meat" derived proteins?

 

[SocialNumb]

What about Fish Oil as a source preformed Vitamin A in our gutloads? In really small amounts and not often of course. Don't know how the feeders will fair but I'm just asking here. Seems like an easy way to supplement if it where to work.