dodolah
Retired Moderator
tryme...I asked you "what is the source of the vitamin A in the multivitamin?"...because you didn't say what the vitamin A is in the vitamin powder I don't know if its getting preformed already or beta carotene. Also...do you feed the insects anything that has preformed vitamin A in it?
BocaJan
New Member
I give my adult male a pinkie about once a month. I recently gave one of my 7 mo. old one and she snarfed it right down. It is now on my list of things to get once a month. Pinkies are a good source of Vit A and you don't have to fiddle with powdered vitamins or opening up an adult capsule and guessing if you are giving enough or too much.
tryme...carrots have beta carotene (prOformed). You can give lots of beta carotene and it doesn't cause an overdose. The concern is the prEformed vitamin A which comes from meat sources or to some extent carion eating insects or supplements that say palmitate, acetate, retinal, retinol, etc.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Tryme,
Some of the confusion that many have when they read the labels on vitamin supplements is due to the ability of the manufacturer to list an analysis of "Vitamin A ... 100,000 I.U.s per kg" or some such measure, when the product contains only a vitamin A prercursor, and not real "pre-formed" Vitamin A. In many cases, the "vitamin A" is actually the precursor beta carotene, which many organisms can synthesize vitamin A from, but chameleons seem unable to. The evidence has been mounting for the last 16 years or so that all the beta carotene in the world will not meet your chameleon's vitamin A needs, just turn it into a rabbit
. Some labels will elaborate as to the form of vitamin A they contain. Often, in ingredients, they should have the specific form listed. If you see retinal acetate or retinal palmitate (spellings can vary), then you have "preformed", or as I like to call it, "real" vitamin A, in a form that can meet your chameleon's needs.
Some of the confusion that many have when they read the labels on vitamin supplements is due to the ability of the manufacturer to list an analysis of "Vitamin A ... 100,000 I.U.s per kg" or some such measure, when the product contains only a vitamin A prercursor, and not real "pre-formed" Vitamin A. In many cases, the "vitamin A" is actually the precursor beta carotene, which many organisms can synthesize vitamin A from, but chameleons seem unable to. The evidence has been mounting for the last 16 years or so that all the beta carotene in the world will not meet your chameleon's vitamin A needs, just turn it into a rabbit
. Some labels will elaborate as to the form of vitamin A they contain. Often, in ingredients, they should have the specific form listed. If you see retinal acetate or retinal palmitate (spellings can vary), then you have "preformed", or as I like to call it, "real" vitamin A, in a form that can meet your chameleon's needs.
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
Jim, wow I didn't know you were working with multi-generational CBBs, I mean I have seen a lot of WC for sale from you over the years but great. Which bloodline is it? And what generation are you on now? How long have you been supplementing preformed vitamin A? Supplementing vitamin A, how long have you gotten your oldest chameleon to live?
Also, I believe that you said "I see many comments here citing the "success of other breeders without it", but all examples cited are second-hand anecdotal if that." Well, I have actually been the one feeding some of the "successful breeders" chameleons who don't use preformed A, so I don't think that could be considered second hand. Also perhaps you didn't see sandrachameleon who has raised a Nosy Be over 7 years without any preformed A.
So again I would love to hear from others, with or without using preformed A that has had a chameleon live over 5 years, and their supplementation.
-chris
Also, I believe that you said "I see many comments here citing the "success of other breeders without it", but all examples cited are second-hand anecdotal if that." Well, I have actually been the one feeding some of the "successful breeders" chameleons who don't use preformed A, so I don't think that could be considered second hand. Also perhaps you didn't see sandrachameleon who has raised a Nosy Be over 7 years without any preformed A.
So again I would love to hear from others, with or without using preformed A that has had a chameleon live over 5 years, and their supplementation.
-chris
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Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Chris,
Not playing 20 questions tonight. Maybe 2-3. Sorry. As for my offerings, my internet advertising has had an offering ratio of over 100:1 CBB to WC over the last 6 years. Guess you didn't look at the right times. Up to 6th generation CBB, btw. Still love WC's too. Been working with pre-formed A deliberately since 2003.
Most of the vitamin A toxicity debate, good, bad, and otherwise, was hashed out back in the mid 90's by some very competent folks. Some of those supporting the belief that pre-formed A is vital would be Stahl, Ferguson, de Vosjoli, Alfonso, Abate, .... and me.
Good job Sandra !
Good luck with all.
Not playing 20 questions tonight. Maybe 2-3. Sorry
. As for my offerings, my internet advertising has had an offering ratio of over 100:1 CBB to WC over the last 6 years. Guess you didn't look at the right times. Up to 6th generation CBB, btw. Still love WC's too. Been working with pre-formed A deliberately since 2003.Most of the vitamin A toxicity debate, good, bad, and otherwise, was hashed out back in the mid 90's by some very competent folks. Some of those supporting the belief that pre-formed A is vital would be Stahl, Ferguson, de Vosjoli, Alfonso, Abate, .... and me.
Good job Sandra !
Good luck with all.
littleliz
Member
would it be sufficient for the critters to be fed preformed vitamin A which I presume would be passed onto your cham. If so how? Would a little bit of hardboiled egg every once in a while be sufficient for your cham to get the vit A that it needs? What is the best scource of vitamin A for a cham?
There is so much beta carotine vitamin A in just about every green stuff that they eat that I doubt that supplimenting beta carotine would ever be neccesarry even though it is said that this form is not as dangerous when eaten in excess.
There is so much beta carotine vitamin A in just about every green stuff that they eat that I doubt that supplimenting beta carotine would ever be neccesarry even though it is said that this form is not as dangerous when eaten in excess.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
LittleLiz
By "critters" I think you mean crickets and other bugs. We found it very ineffective, difficult to control, etc. We still found incidence of Vitamin A deficiency when we tried using cricket gut-loading as an indirect delivery system. Not saying it can't work, but it introduces more cost and more variables.
By "critters" I think you mean crickets and other bugs. We found it very ineffective, difficult to control, etc. We still found incidence of Vitamin A deficiency when we tried using cricket gut-loading as an indirect delivery system. Not saying it can't work, but it introduces more cost and more variables.
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
Littleliz...I think greens are great to gutload your little critters and I doubt that anyone would disagree. As far as the so called "real" vitamin A...proformed vitamin A (beta carotene) is also real vitamin A and has worked for many years for many people, to name drop a list of names would be insignificant and tedious.
Jim, so what blood line are you working with being 6th generation (I have seen a jr but that is all I can recall)? Also does vitamin A affect breeding and development or is it paired with something else you use to increases development because if you have been doing it for 6 years, how do you have 6th generation when it takes at lease 6 months for panther eggs to hatch and at least 1 month after copulation for eggs to be laid then you have to wait at least another 6 months before you can breed, right???
I personally have not worked in multi-generations but I plan to, so I want the best health for my chams (and everyone else on the fourm's) to give them the greatest opportunity for multi-generational breeding and your information disagrees with others that I know personally who I have seen their multi-generation CBBs.
-chris
Jim, so what blood line are you working with being 6th generation (I have seen a jr but that is all I can recall)? Also does vitamin A affect breeding and development or is it paired with something else you use to increases development because if you have been doing it for 6 years, how do you have 6th generation when it takes at lease 6 months for panther eggs to hatch and at least 1 month after copulation for eggs to be laid then you have to wait at least another 6 months before you can breed, right???
I personally have not worked in multi-generations but I plan to, so I want the best health for my chams (and everyone else on the fourm's) to give them the greatest opportunity for multi-generational breeding and your information disagrees with others that I know personally who I have seen their multi-generation CBBs.
-chris
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Well, we'll just have to .....
.... Let the reader decide !
.... Let the reader decide !
Justin Carl
Avid Member
I have been following this thread since it started.
I really don't have much time to post, but I do have an opinion.
If chameleons can "convert beta carotene into vitamin A", then why not just give them Vitamin A?
That just makes more sense to me...?...?...?
I dust with several different supplements.
Some of which include; RepCal, RepCal with D3, MinerAll 0, Herptivite, and Sandfire Super Foods T-Rex Chameleon Dust.
Sandfire Super Foods T-Rex Chameleon Dust contains 20,000 IU/Kilo of vitamin A Acetate.
This is where my chameleons get their vitamin A.
I'd love to hear anyone opinion or facts on T-Rex chameleon dust.
*edit*
In post 37 you go over how much reptivite has.
Looks like my T-Rex has a lot less.
I really don't have much time to post, but I do have an opinion.
If chameleons can "convert beta carotene into vitamin A", then why not just give them Vitamin A?
That just makes more sense to me...?...?...?
I dust with several different supplements.
Some of which include; RepCal, RepCal with D3, MinerAll 0, Herptivite, and Sandfire Super Foods T-Rex Chameleon Dust.
Sandfire Super Foods T-Rex Chameleon Dust contains 20,000 IU/Kilo of vitamin A Acetate.
This is where my chameleons get their vitamin A.
I'd love to hear anyone opinion or facts on T-Rex chameleon dust.
*edit*
In post 37 you go over how much reptivite has.
Looks like my T-Rex has a lot less.
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shaneandjennifer said..."How do they get vitamin A in the wild?"...from what I have read about insects some of them have quite a bit of vitamin A in them.
Sepiotuethis said..."If they can convert beta carotene then why do some people that provide it (in gutload or dusting) still get chams with signs of vit A deficiency?"....it might be from an imbalance (between D3 and A for instance). Also if the chameleon is unable to move out of the UVB the vitamin A may be destroyed. Maybe it could be due to hypothyroidism?
When I said..."do we know that the chameleon would not be getting too much D3 since it should already be making D3 from its exposure to UVB?"...I was thinking that if the chameleon had been under a UVB source enough to make the necessary amount and then was dosed with the codliver oil would it be too much at that time and the chameleon would then have to stay out of the UVB until the level "evened" out.
When I said..."Since A and D3 are antagonistic to one another if not in balance what does this mean??"..I was meaning...would the A simply counter balance the D3 or what? Would overdosing both D3 and vitamin A cause organ damage in spite of there being no signs of overdoses?
Here is some information about vitamin A/carotenoids in insects and any information that I have found concerning chameleons possibly being able to convert it...
Carotenoids in insects...
"Among insects, the silkworm, Bombyx mori, has had its carotenoid-binding proteins most extensively studied because carotenoids impart various colors to their cocoons".
"In invertebrates and vertebrates, carotenoids are ubiquitous colorants, antioxidants, and provitamin A compounds that must be absorbed from dietary sources and transported to target tissues where they are taken up and stabilized to perform their physiological functions."
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1831825
"The sample of caterpillars regularly eaten by these peoples was rich in beta carotene (provitamin A), and a 100 g ingestion guaranteed 323 percent of the recommended daily intake of vitamin A. "...
http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?req....1646/0006-3606(2002)034[0273:NEOTIA]2.0.CO;2
"Possibly vitamin A or a derivative of vitamin A functions as the photoreceptor pigment for the photoperiodic reaction in this species of insect."
http://www.springerlink.com/content/q8737350x5057151/
"Silkworm pupae have ample amounts of vitamin A, locusts are rich in riboflavin and niacin, and honey bee larvae contain high amounts of vitamin D."
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/entomology/topics/goods.htm
"Meal worms are high in protein with essential vitamin A and B."
http://www.yourpetstop.net/Mealworms.php
"In spiders, vitamin E content ranged from 43.2–201.2 IU/kg; vitamin A levels ranged from 144.5–426.3 IU/kg."
http://apt.allenpress.com/perlserv/...&issn=0098-4590&volume=066&issue=02&page=0084
"Vogt has found the visual systems of a wide variety of animals depend on Vitamin A3. The largest group are the two-winged flies of the Order Diptera and the moths of the Order Lepidoptera".
http://4colorvision.com/files/vitaminAs.htm
Vitamin and mineral contents of commonly eaten insects in south western Nigeria...
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...era+AND+"vitamin+A"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=15&gl=ca
P. brassicae contained vitamin A in the heads and it was found in the ova also...
http://books.google.ca/books?id=13T...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result
Vitamin A synthesis from beta carotene?
http://books.google.com/books?id=QL...ts=M-9HeL4uw7&sig=3lc_R5DhTVAS5-BoDAGyamPXum4
"Although the insects that form the diet of the chameleon are a poor source of preformed vitamin A, the presence of this vitamin in the yolk suggests its maternal synthesis from carotenoid precursers." This statement was concerning furcifer pardalis....and I've mentioned it in other posts.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/95016303/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
"Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of egg development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors, with concentrations similar to those measured in other lizard eggs."
Slightly off topic...interesting that cockroaches have been noted to be able to produce vitamin A but can live without it with no apparent problems.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3795868
Sepiotuethis said..."If they can convert beta carotene then why do some people that provide it (in gutload or dusting) still get chams with signs of vit A deficiency?"....it might be from an imbalance (between D3 and A for instance). Also if the chameleon is unable to move out of the UVB the vitamin A may be destroyed. Maybe it could be due to hypothyroidism?
When I said..."do we know that the chameleon would not be getting too much D3 since it should already be making D3 from its exposure to UVB?"...I was thinking that if the chameleon had been under a UVB source enough to make the necessary amount and then was dosed with the codliver oil would it be too much at that time and the chameleon would then have to stay out of the UVB until the level "evened" out.
When I said..."Since A and D3 are antagonistic to one another if not in balance what does this mean??"..I was meaning...would the A simply counter balance the D3 or what? Would overdosing both D3 and vitamin A cause organ damage in spite of there being no signs of overdoses?
Here is some information about vitamin A/carotenoids in insects and any information that I have found concerning chameleons possibly being able to convert it...
Carotenoids in insects...
"Among insects, the silkworm, Bombyx mori, has had its carotenoid-binding proteins most extensively studied because carotenoids impart various colors to their cocoons".
"In invertebrates and vertebrates, carotenoids are ubiquitous colorants, antioxidants, and provitamin A compounds that must be absorbed from dietary sources and transported to target tissues where they are taken up and stabilized to perform their physiological functions."
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1831825
"The sample of caterpillars regularly eaten by these peoples was rich in beta carotene (provitamin A), and a 100 g ingestion guaranteed 323 percent of the recommended daily intake of vitamin A. "...
http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?req....1646/0006-3606(2002)034[0273:NEOTIA]2.0.CO;2
"Possibly vitamin A or a derivative of vitamin A functions as the photoreceptor pigment for the photoperiodic reaction in this species of insect."
http://www.springerlink.com/content/q8737350x5057151/
"Silkworm pupae have ample amounts of vitamin A, locusts are rich in riboflavin and niacin, and honey bee larvae contain high amounts of vitamin D."
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/entomology/topics/goods.htm
"Meal worms are high in protein with essential vitamin A and B."
http://www.yourpetstop.net/Mealworms.php
"In spiders, vitamin E content ranged from 43.2–201.2 IU/kg; vitamin A levels ranged from 144.5–426.3 IU/kg."
http://apt.allenpress.com/perlserv/...&issn=0098-4590&volume=066&issue=02&page=0084
"Vogt has found the visual systems of a wide variety of animals depend on Vitamin A3. The largest group are the two-winged flies of the Order Diptera and the moths of the Order Lepidoptera".
http://4colorvision.com/files/vitaminAs.htm
Vitamin and mineral contents of commonly eaten insects in south western Nigeria...
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...era+AND+"vitamin+A"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=15&gl=ca
P. brassicae contained vitamin A in the heads and it was found in the ova also...
http://books.google.ca/books?id=13T...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result
Vitamin A synthesis from beta carotene?
http://books.google.com/books?id=QL...ts=M-9HeL4uw7&sig=3lc_R5DhTVAS5-BoDAGyamPXum4
"Although the insects that form the diet of the chameleon are a poor source of preformed vitamin A, the presence of this vitamin in the yolk suggests its maternal synthesis from carotenoid precursers." This statement was concerning furcifer pardalis....and I've mentioned it in other posts.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/95016303/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
"Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of egg development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors, with concentrations similar to those measured in other lizard eggs."
Slightly off topic...interesting that cockroaches have been noted to be able to produce vitamin A but can live without it with no apparent problems.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3795868
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
Justin,
"If chameleons can "convert beta carotene into vitamin A", then why not just give them Vitamin A?
That just makes more sense to me...?...?...?"
Because if chameleons can convert beta carotene or other pro-form vitamin A (precursors) then you supplementing a foreign preform A into their system will eventually OD them. Vitamin A cannot be excreted out of their bodies so it just builds up and builds up and can build up to toxic levels. So as seen by many of the links kinyonga supplied chameleons do somehow convert precursors into a usable A. Meaning that we do not need to nor should we supplement "real" vitamin A as stated earlier. A good balanced diet with gut loaded feeders will do the trick.
-chris
"If chameleons can "convert beta carotene into vitamin A", then why not just give them Vitamin A?
That just makes more sense to me...?...?...?"
Because if chameleons can convert beta carotene or other pro-form vitamin A (precursors) then you supplementing a foreign preform A into their system will eventually OD them. Vitamin A cannot be excreted out of their bodies so it just builds up and builds up and can build up to toxic levels. So as seen by many of the links kinyonga supplied chameleons do somehow convert precursors into a usable A. Meaning that we do not need to nor should we supplement "real" vitamin A as stated earlier. A good balanced diet with gut loaded feeders will do the trick.
-chris
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Well, the diet of these animals in the wild does the trick. It does many tricks in fact. Mother Nature's results with all chameleon species are better across the board than what breeders have done to date, and likely better than wannabee breeders will find themselves achieving as well. If one could match that wild diet, likely most problems would be solved. But we don't even know what it is, as it is not just what bugs are consumed and in what ratios, but more importantly, what the bugs HAVE consumed. The comparison that people are not succeeding on a level with Mother Nature exists within the experiences of almost every reader here who has been working with chameleons for any length of time. Analyze your own results. Those of you who are satisfied with your success with chameleons need not change a thing.
Without dropping the boatload of names all over again, those of you who work with Scott Stahl as your vet know that he recommends Reptivite over other brands because of its pre-formed Vitamin A content. Scott was writing papers about this stuff while many of you were in elementary school, and he has stayed well up on things since. Chris, why don't you take mail your data to him ?
Have you even read the studies done on this ? Could you cite those that you have read, and then explain your basis for disagreement, cause your advice is counter to the recommendations of many far more knowledgeable and experienced than you ? Thanks.
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