Vitamin A....it scares me

[CleanLineChameleons]

AE once said "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." And Jim, you said yourself that we have the "book-smarts," possibly you are missing something. The only thing experience shows you is what not to do which could potentially take forever to teach someone. Experience can be quite important but does not hold a candle to knowledge. Without the guidance of book-smarts where are you going. Perhaps this link will help you remember, clearly quoted are nutrition books and articles that deal with everything from the way the vitamins are used and broken down all the way to the chemicals and molecular structure that make up the vitamins. Also, I am not forced into my experiences, this is my love not my occupation.

I too am personal friends with two exotic vets that I speak with pretty much on a weekly basis. Their knowledge is vital to the health and wellness of my pets and to the betterment of the entire reptile community. I cannot stress enough how they have helped me! Their knowledge in unison with a reptile nutritionist would be unsurpassable. Where vets are required (though not restricted) to complete only one introductory nutrition course, the nutritionist can complement this by providing further knowledge on the topic. A vet is great when we have sick animals but nutritionists are specialists in preventative health; this is the category in which this thread falls.

Now that I have fully answered your question, Jim help me understand what you have learned from your experiences with vitamin A. Again I ask which blood line you have that is multi-generational (you said you have F5 generation, this means these were produce with two F4)? Is it the Anubis blood line because I have seen a Jr and I still am seeing his offspring for sale recently? How old would that make him? How long have you had a chameleon live using your preformed A supplementation?

-chris

 

[TreelionsUK]

As you said jim does this for a living,so he is a "professional" why are you making "beef" with this man?? why does he have prove and justify his self??

You should be thankful that he shares his experiance with us

 

[Chameleon Company]

Chris,

I will point out that all of the entities involved in the earlier studies cited not only had "book smarts" of the highest order, but also extensive practical knowledge working with chameleons. Back then, folks had to earn their credentials in order to be published, speak to a crowd, etc. Now, keyboards and forums seem to create "instant experts", and are far too easily relied on by others hoping for quick answers. I would use this thread as a perfect example for people to first ask and listen, but then do their own research into second and third opinions where qualifications go beyond keyboard ownership..

Once again, we can let the customer decide. Time to walk on.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Treelions, that is hard to respond to because I do not want this thread to be blocked. I guess you have not seen the multiple attacks on others, but that isn't what bothers me most. What bothers me is when people start advising others to do things that could put their chameleons at risk. I do this because I love chameleons not because I want to make money. I am a registered business and I too sell chameleons to the public, and I do not want someone having my chameleon that I worked long and hard to raise, die because they listened to something like this. Once they are dead, there is no bringing them back. And yes preformed vitamin A can kill your chameleon, and yes you will not see any signs until it is too late. Treelions if you have seen other threads you will know why I ask him so many questions, not because I have beef but to find out what parts of what he says is true. So I asked him simple questions that should be very simple and straight forward and easy for him to answer.

I hope this helps.

-chris

 

[ChromaChameleons]

Chris:

Why are you holding Jim to a higher standard of disclosure than you hold yourself to?????

You haven't named your Breeder friends, the vets you know and you havent acknowledged your misquoted info on the previous Vit A thread... I'm sure you remember that one....

No one is disputing your point of view. We all know where you stand on the subject. But please respect someone else's opinion , if it should differ from yours.

 

[Vibrant Chameleons]

Chris,

Why would you question a breeder like Jim F @ Cham Co? If he says he has 6th generation chameleons, my guess is that he almost 100% does. He's one of the most reputable breeders out their, why question him? Also, Jim has been using Vit A for years, shouldn't that be proof that it doesn't KILL the chameleons? If it does, do you think Jim would be still using Vit A?

This is not an attack, it's simple questions.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Chris,

In your own recent words:

.... What bothers me is when people start advising others to do things that could put their chameleons at risk. I do this because I love chameleons not because I want to make money. I am a registered business and I too sell chameleons to the public, and I do not want someone having my chameleon that I worked long and hard to raise, die because they listened to something like this.

One motivator for the studies in the mid 90's was to debunk some published info then that raised a large red flag warning about Vitamin A supplementation, basically a magazine article that encouraged people not to do it, that it was dangerous. You are as that 15-year-old argument all over again. After a few years, the above veterinarians and breeders realized that the original article was bad advice. In Ardi Abate's encompassing rebuttal article, which cited work by Ferguson, Stahl, and de Vosjoli, among others, she clearly states that the argument to not use pre-formed A was flawed, and potentially quite dangerous a practice to follow. The work of these highly qualified folks, later supported by other studies, and me , endorsed the practice of pre-formed A supplementation. It stands to easy logic that these folks, and me , would have the same concern about your advice "putting the chameleons of others at risk" as you so honorably claim for your difference of opinion.

No one has ever claimed that all will fail if they do not supplement directly. As with most chameleon husbandry, what they do is recommend supplementation, in that their experiences and specific studies show improved results in chameleon husbandry than if it were not done. Even today they recommend it. And yet you claim that "they know not what they do" .... my paraphrase, but I think it accurate.

Seems there are forums out there where every other thread is "Help !!! ... My chameleon is sick .... eggs went bad .... juveniles dying .... females not holding up". But heck, if it ain't broke, why fix it !

No one is denying you your forum to disagree. But, you cannot cite your own multi-generational breeding experience, because you admittedly don't have any. You cite no other work specific on this issue to refute the earlier studies. Yet now the advice of those far more qualified and experienced than you is going to cause the death of chameleons you sell if the are listened to. Has anyone claimed that listening to you is going to kill chameleons ?

Of course, you are a registered business ! That's gotta count for something

I bred my first panthers in 1998, btw. Your math is "fuzzy" too, but I truly have better pursuits than to enlighten you, like getting the cages ready for the F-7's soon to pop. I believe Ardi went to F-9 before she felt it was enough.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Harry,

I do not hold him to any higher standard of disclosure. I will tell you everything I have and pictures of it. I would even tell you when I had things die and why I expect they died (I would never expect anyone to be expected to answer that). But no one has ever asked. I would even ask you the same questions, how long have you been supplementing preformed A and how old is your oldest chameleon on that supplementation schedule? I asked simple questions, if he chooses to avoid and fire off some other response, I can't help that the thread has drug on. I just wanted the answer to the simple questions, not some smart attack. Harry, I respect what you have to say because you have respected what I have said, so I will probably continue asking about it in the future to see your experience with it.

Vibrant,

There has been many threads about this and many people rudely attacked but those posts have since been deleted. I am only trying to find some real numbers here, not some well he advises this and she advises that. I question much of his info many because there is very little produced for having 1,000s of chams. I have never seen any baby pics only the same 7 pics of the same breeders that have been there for years and never new pictures. Everyone else you see picture evidence and new breeders. So why am I suppose to listen to someone about a very touchy vitamin who has not seen the true advantages of it? So, if he has done it for 6 years he should have something to show us, if he has used it for 6 years an it does not benefits then he won't have anything to show us?

Jim,

Ok F-9??? A F-9 generation is a chameleon produced from two F-8s. F-1s are chameleons produced from 2 wild caughts, F-2s are the product of two F-1s. Shoot if you are counting how many times you bred a female then yes I too am a multi-generational breeder. You cannot keep getting in wc males and breeding them to a female and claim they are F-9, they are technically F-1s or F-2s at best. Also are the cages that you are getting ready for the F-7s the same ones you are selling?

-chris

 

[Chameleon Company]

I have no cages for sale, but if you'd like to post a link to the offering, I'd sure be interested in seeing what price I am asking !!

Nothing else worth a comment.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Oh by the way it would take 128 WC chameleon of the same locale to breed at the same time to work your way to an unrelated F-7. That would be a large portion of the country's quota... especially coming from the same locale and around the same age..?.?

-Chris

 

[Chameleon Company]

Chris,

By your math, who really knows .... LOL. Others do not use your counting systems, but heck, maybe they've just been breeding chameleons and working with them for so long, they've lost their minds and need to play shuffleboard.

Back to the original thread topic. You have your opinions about supplementation with pre-formed A, whether it is necessary and/or a help, to be avoided due to potential toxicity, etc. Counter opinions, and studies specific to this topic which contrast some of your opinions, have been out there for over a decade. Highly respected named veterinarians and other entities in the chameleon breeding community have been specifically cited supporting opinions that you disagree with. They have bred and tested and compared before connecting the dots as they have. You rely on no documented studies to connect them differently, but do rely on leaps of extrapolation to get from one dot to the next, all the while ignoring their findings. In this thread, and in others, it has been you who attacks the findings of these studies, and the only reason I can see is that you stated a different opinion before you were aware the studies existed. You now go so far so as to claim that their advice will lead to the death of chameleons that you sell.

Keep posting. It does the community good in some ways. A wise man once said that "it is better to be thought a than open one's mouth and remove all doubt".

I think your baseless claims and accusations reached a point deserving of another forum a while ago. Take it there if you need to be so adamant in degrading the work of others. Its a shame you can't be part of a legitimate exchange of contrary views without demonizing those you disagree with, to the point of besmirching them, their findings, and eventually assigning their advice to being a kiss of death, cause you know better !

 

[Brad]

Please take personal conflicts elsewhere and stick to the thread topic.



The Panther Chameleon
by Gary Ferguson, James Murphy, J. Ramanamanjato, and A. Raselimanana
page 78

A diet containing carotenoids but not vitamin A does not seem to be effective at preventing vitamin A deficiency symptoms in panther chameleons.

 

[bucky]

Please take personal conflicts elsewhere and stick to the thread topic.



The Panther Chameleon
by Gary Ferguson, James Murphy, J. Ramanamanjato, and A. Raselimanana
page 78

Carotenoids i guess is beta carotene?

 

[Brad]

Yes, beta-carotene is a type of carotenoid.

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Thanks for all the links, Kinyonga! I really appreciate all the time you put into replying and I apologise if I ask things that you have already posted elsewhere. I'm not very good about reading every post of a subject.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/95016303/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
"Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of egg development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors, with concentrations similar to those measured in other lizard eggs."

That's very interesting, but it's too bad that it costs 30 bucks to see the entire article. I'm curious as to how they determined that a chameleons diet contains very little vit A. It sounds from the abstract as if they assume that female panther chameleons only eat insects and no birds/lizards. I'd like to know if this assumption is based on study (stomach contents for instance).
I suppose I'll have to just shell out the $30 to find out.
Still debating whether to do that...

cheers!
Suzanne

 

[dodolah]

Thanks for all the links, Kinyonga! I really appreciate all the time you put into replying and I apologise if I ask things that you have already posted elsewhere. I'm not very good about reading every post of a subject.



That's very interesting, but it's too bad that it costs 30 bucks to see the entire article. I'm curious as to how they determined that a chameleons diet contains very little vit A. It sounds from the abstract as if they assume that female panther chameleons only eat insects and no birds/lizards. I'd like to know if this assumption is based on study (stomach contents for instance).
I suppose I'll have to just shell out the $30 to find out.
Still debating whether to do that...

cheers!
Suzanne

I can't even go and preview the article somehow
If you tell me the name of the article and the author(s), I might be able to pull it off from my JSTOR and research paper(s) account.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

i have a ch melleri hatchling

to thin for my liking, eating and drinking normally though ( temps were too high)
but i also noticed a blotchy shed, and what may be closed eyes out of the normal

i was advs eyes + blotchy 3 day shed could be a vitamin a def. that can very quickly be fatal.

fed one reptivite dusted crick yesterday, what affects will this vit a dusted crick have on my little guy, ( good signs? how long will it take to see results ) and if there was a vit a def. at the vit a content of reptivite how often would be a good guess as when to feed a reptivite dusted crick to such a small cham?
thanks all

 

[Chameleon Company]

Chris and others against pre-formed A.

If civil disagreement is possible, I would be the first to trumpet that the best diet is exactly as Mother Nature provides. There is no flaw in pursuing a course designed to achieve her results in a captive environment. My belief, when comparing her results with the majority of results in the community, is that we just are not there yet, at times failing miserably, paying a high price in $ and ego for the experience of failure, and killing one or more animals, despite our best intentions. Every aspect of husbandry discussed in these forums involves attempts to replicate, imitate, or substitute for her success. Supplementing with pre-formed A is a substitution, as we still come up short otherwise. As with others cited, we have a large body of data without Pre-A, and then with it. Our data confirms, IMMHO, the findings of Ferguson et al. A standing goal every day is to find the means to substitute less, and replicate more.

Kinyonga and others that brought knowledge to the table, I thank you. Its all a part of the process.

Joshua, if it is just a Vitamin A deficiency, and that is a big "if" with a newborn animal that has yet to establish that it is healthy, with no other complications, improvement is usually seen in a few days. For it to show closed eyes so early in life would usually point to a more serious problem than an acquired deficiency, as acquired deficiencies take time to develop, and it isn't old enough to have acquired a shortage. Vitamin A deficiency diagnosis is often a process of elimination. When going by the eyes, it is rarely that both eyes show initial symptoms simultaneously. That it is observed as not simultaneous lends itself to a deficiency diagnosis. Good luck.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Brad, yea I have actually seen that in the book. But one thing to consider is that those numbers were from '96 and it is tough to know what their other options were as far as feeders. Also there are so many factors that contribute to beta carotene conversion to a useable A. Being that beta carotene is a water soluble vitamin, hydration plays a huge part. Furthermore it would be very difficult to test a large number of chameleons mainly because they would be kept by the same person and all have the same levels of other vitamins in their systems. But what is interesting is the vitamin A that is found in eggs as kinyonga pointed out there is an article by Ellen S. Dierenfeld, Edward B. Norkus, Kathryn Carroll, and Gary W. Ferguson that "suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors." This information was from 2000, four years after the information in The Panther Chameleon formulated. Kinyonga also had this link suggesting that chameleons can convert precursors into usable A (that book was from 2004 and has a pretty strong list of contributors). Also, it has been proven that many arthropods with hard exoskeletons can convert carotenoids to usable A.

-chris

 

[kinyonga]

sepiotuethis...I posted the quote from the article because it talks about effective carotenoid conversion and at a rate that other lizards produce...it indicates that carotenes can be converted by chameleons....which is what the concern with vitamin A is.