WARNING, GRAPHIC PHOTOS—i inadvertently caused the death of one of my Carpet chams

[Rodger]

Hi Sorry for your loss & thanks for posting . I seen my 7 month old veiled female eating the quencher ( I put way down in the moss ) last week . I had never seen her drink , but she had never looked dehyrated to me . I took the quencher out & wondered about it . You started this thread a few days later . It has been a week since she was exposed . She got very thirsty & even drank while i misted her . She even drank from a little water bowl . BUt that was several days ago . I wonder if I should give her anything or what could a vet do ? I took all the substrate out , but have not seen any poop on the floor since then , I know it could be in the folage , but I am still very worried . She has been acting like she wants to lay eggs for about a month ( digging ) but does not show egg bumps at all . Her appetite does not seem to be there . I put her outside this morning & after she went to where it was shady , i brought her back inside . I let her walk around on my wife & me some ( have only done that a couple times before ) . After I put her back into the enclosure , in a few minutes she gaped her mouth open like she was trying to throw up & was heaving ... just clear liquid cane out . I don't know if she got overheated , stressed because of the handling or if that might be an impaction sign ?? She is active , seems normal with the exceptions i mentioned .. any advice please ? Thanks

 

[Dr O]

I don't know how I can really advise in a situation like this. Unfortunately, there was no way to palpate this as it was only a gel, and I had been palpating her frequently assessing the amount of eggs that she had left and never found this.

This seems to be one of those things similar to rawhide bones and dogs; whereas 95% may be able to chew them and perhaps even swallow them without any incidents, there's 5% that will either choke to death on it or have it get impacted somewhere in their G.I. tract. So in that respect, I can't imagine how many chameleons must have eaten this gel in the past and either made it or didn't and it was never known because there was no necrpsy done. Also, I am positive that this would never show up on a standard x-ray but would definitely need contrast material given orally as well to find and define an obstruction if it is indeed there.

The usual applies; you need to see a vet if you feel like something is wrong and at least you have this information to refer to so that they are aware that it is a possibility.

dr. o—

 

[Rodger]

Thanks . I have been around animals all my life & have a farm full with with mini horses & mini donkeys . I have thru thru the gaunlet of stuff & seen boths sides ( survival & death ) . I think it has been enough time that she should have went septic if impacted . She stopped or slowed down eating ( some dubias in the folage all the time ) so not seeing her poop might not be as critical as I fear . She has been acting like she is going to lay a nest for weeks . I seen her drink ALOT right from the cup a day after eating the gel . The gel was not dehyrated much if any . I know in equine, giving them oil coats the digestive tract & helps pass / unclog . I guess there is no general rule to follow as far as limiting water or trying to get her to ingest as much as possible . She is active & was hunting today . the only distress she has shown is throwing up the clear stuff today . She does not like dubias as much as crickets . i have been thinking of buying some crickets & putting some minieral oil in them before feeding her ... you think that could worsen the possible situation ?
again , thanks alot for the original post & the advice given , Rodger

 

[Dr O]

I think it has been enough time that she should have went septic if impacted.

i have been thinking of buying some crickets & putting some minieral oil in them before feeding her ... you think that could worsen the possible situation ?

Why? Mine never went septic.

I think oral mineral oil worsens most situations except for when given via tube in cows and horses. Any mineral oil that remains on the glottis will find its way down the trachea and into the lungs where it remains forever and cannot be broken down by the body at all. That alone causes fatalities in a lot of cases.

Unless you were giving the oil straight into the stomach via gavage tube, I never advise just giving it orally even when injected into other animals as it will still come out as they bite down on them. If you really feel a need for oil in whatever situation you are in, make it a digestible one! Nothing wrong with a little vegetable or olive oil, it just needs to be slippery.

dr. o—

 

[Rodger]

I was using the wrong word . vegatable oil , not mineral is what the vet told me to use when I had a hosre colic .

I bought my veiled at 3 months old in a 12'x12'x24" ecto set-up ( about 4 months ago ) . I bought a 18"x18'24" ecto set-up recently & trasferred her into it . I left the moss as they gal said she has a chameleon for 5 years . I took that out after I seen her eat the water crystal & after rreading about the dangers of substrates . Too late , she died yesterday . She had been digging in the laying bin I have in her enclosure & when i put her outside in the mornings , she really went to digging in the big flower pot . I put the big flower pot in her enclosure & covered her enclosure . When I came home she was dead . I opened her up & found the moss in her GI tract . 2 clumps & fiber along it . I wonder if the water crystals help impact her ? Could not have helped , I'm sure . By my inexperience , I caused her death . I had taken all the substrate out & was never going to use any , just scrape the bottom clean . The initial set-up had wood chips in it & i seen her make sure she did not swallow any . I bowl fed the insects & did not think she would be ingesting any substrate as she stayed up near the top of the enclosure . I took pictures of the autopsy , She had a TINY egg mass with the eggs the size of a grain of sand . I thought she was laying , but was feeling the effects of impaction .

 

[Elizadolots]

Dr. O, I've seen pear baby food recommended a number of times as a way to help with constipation. Do you have any thoughts on that?

 

[Dr O]

I was using the wrong word . vegatable oil , not mineral is what the vet told me to use when I had a hosre colic .

I bought my veiled at 3 months old in a 12'x12'x24" ecto set-up ( about 4 months ago ) . I bought a 18"x18'24" ecto set-up recently & trasferred her into it . I left the moss as they gal said she has a chameleon for 5 years . I took that out after I seen her eat the water crystal & after rreading about the dangers of substrates . Too late , she died yesterday . She had been digging in the laying bin I have in her enclosure & when i put her outside in the mornings , she really went to digging in the big flower pot . I put the big flower pot in her enclosure & covered her enclosure . When I came home she was dead . I opened her up & found the moss in her GI tract . 2 clumps & fiber along it . I wonder if the water crystals help impact her ? Could not have helped , I'm sure . By my inexperience , I caused her death . I had taken all the substrate out & was never going to use any , just scrape the bottom clean . The initial set-up had wood chips in it & i seen her make sure she did not swallow any . I bowl fed the insects & did not think she would be ingesting any substrate as she stayed up near the top of the enclosure . I took pictures of the autopsy , She had a TINY egg mass with the eggs the size of a grain of sand . I thought she was laying , but was feeling the effects of impaction .

wow, that's really too bad. I'm so sorry for your loss.

I definitely commend you for recognizing that something was wrong here and although it was too late even recognizing what the danger might have been. I'm not even sure as a veterinarian what I would have done barring surgery and although I'm glad to see that we are talking about a different kind of oil I have a feeling that oil probably won't help with water crystals since they don't mix and the oil will probably just slide right around the water gel. Perhaps it could have gotten out moss, but even that seems a little unlikely as the small intestine is really just that; small.

I would certainly be interested in seeing your photographs if you want to share them either here on the forum or in a private message if you prefer. the eggs that you saw were probably the miniscule eggs that are just typically found on ovaries when they are not fertilized. They generally just look like tiny caviar type eggs.

in the long run it goes back to something that has been oft repeated on this forum-----substrate in most chameleon cages is trouble. Again, my condolences. i have a feeling that if you try again at some point whenever you're ready, you may have a much more positive outcome particularly by utilizing this forum for reference.

 

[Dr O]

Dr. O, I've seen pear baby food recommended a number of times as a way to help with constipation. Do you have any thoughts on that?

for minor constipation I don't see any issues with that. but in general, a chameleon should not be constipated. If they are, there is likely something wrong with the water or humidity or the other usual suspects. and as a veterinarian I am rarely seeing mild constipation, I am seeing something major and potentially life-threatening. so then I tend to utilize more of the big gun stool softening methods.

 

[carol5208]

I see moss in any cage a hazard even if it is not being used as substrate but for decoration purposes also. If it can pull away in pieces then in my book it is a danger. Dr O are you still going to post the MBD pics?.I am curious to see them. Not because I am morbid or anything but just wanting to learn everything I can about these amazing creatures.

 

[Rodger]

Thanks . Here are the pics I took . i didn't want to be morbid , but thought it might do some good . I bought a male veiled today from PetSmart ( $69 ) & am gonna reread everything . The info here is outstanding !! As compacted & as black as the GI tract was , i think surgery would have to been done days before . She never really seemed to go into distress ( i was gone about 4 hours ) . The impaction put her into laying mode , but that was not the problem . I am amazed at the amount of moss/ferns that was inside her . I cup fed her , but some small dubias were in the moss . I told the gal at PetSmart what happened & said the substrate they are using could do the same thing . She said she will tell the manager & wants to change it

 

[Dr O]

. Dr O are you still going to post the MBD pics?.I am curious to see them. Not because I am morbid or anything but just wanting to learn everything I can about these amazing creatures.

Yes, I promise I will get right to them. I had just posted a large set of files on another thread. Just figuring out how the attachments work with articles and so forth, and it worked out pretty well. I'll try to have it up within the next day or two. Thanks for being patient!

 

[Dr O]

Thanks . Here are the pics I took . i didn't want to be morbid , but thought it might do some good . I bought a male veiled today from PetSmart ( $69 ) & am gonna reread everything . The info here is outstanding !! As compacted & as black as the GI tract was , i think surgery would have to been done days before . She never really seemed to go into distress ( i was gone about 4 hours ) . The impaction put her into laying mode , but that was not the problem . I am amazed at the amount of moss/ferns that was inside her . I cup fed her , but some small dubias were in the moss . I told the gal at PetSmart what happened & said the substrate they are using could do the same thing . She said she will tell the manager & wants to change it

Huge props to you for doing all that you can from your loss! and helping lots of others here on the forum as well.

from the photos, it is clear that there was just no digesting that moss. just was not going to happen. if that's not a statement on not having substrates with chams, i don't know what is.

the second shot looks like some normal fat bodies from her abdomen?

those eggs are typical of the stage where they're just ripe for some lovin' 'n some spermin'.


that's my call. i dunno if posting pics like that also might deserve their own thread rather than being buried in here, but i guess that's up to the mod's.

 

[Rodger]

This thread inspired me to have to find out as much as I could , thanks for inspiring me . The 2nd pic stuff was in her rear half along her rear leg area . I was wondering what they were . There was big ball in the GI tract about an inch from her vent & a small ball 1/2 " away . the whole tract had the moss in it . Hard to believe she ingested all that not on purpose . When i had her in the 1rst enclosure with wood substrate , she would swipe anything off before finishing the cricket/dubia . I never did see her drink until after eating the water crystal & then she drank from a dish like a cow . I was a few days late finding out about the water crystals & the substrate ... That is the hardest part with dealing with animals , no commuincation & somewhat like donkeys , the chameleons don't show sickness near as quickly or pronounced as other animals , especially to the untrained .

 

[Dr O]

That is the hardest part with dealing with animals , no commuincation & somewhat like donkeys , the chameleons don't show sickness near as quickly or pronounced as other animals , especially to the untrained .

now THAT has to be the first time donkeys and chameleons have been compared together, nevermind being put in the same sentence!

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I'm glad this thread exists (so sorry for the circumstances that brought it about!) because now when people ask if there is any proof for the 'substrate causes impactions' I can say yes! here's the link! Again, sorry for the losses, but at least many will learn from these unfortunate cases.

 

[Rodger]

I have learned from owning mini donkeys , by the time they show distress ( ears laying back ) . .. it is usually VERY late in the game .

 

[ibdragons]

She didn't die for nothing,I will never put one of those cubes in any of my cages .

 

[reptilover]

She didn't die for nothing,I will never put one of those cubes in any of my cages .

^^^^^ that's right.. for me went from I dont recommend substrate to please remove immediately

 

[Rodger]

^^^^^ that's right.. for me went from I dont recommend substrate to please remove immediately

That is what I told PetSmart last night . I might make up some flyers to give to them . Finding this forum & thread by Dr O is great , but for those that haven't yet .. the info could save the life of many chameleons & much grief for the owners .

 

[Rodger]

Oh no Kevin, I'm so sorry! And poor Lemon, that's terrible.

I'd be curious to run a little experiment with a tiny piece of bug burger and see if it does the same thing. I always imagined these gelatin products would dissolve in the intestines, but I guess not.

I put a water crystal in a bowl of water for 2 days .. wondering if it would expand further . Never grew or dissolved a bit ... only the color dissapated .