WC : Bad or Good?

Anilr16

Anilr16

New Member
Well, I do know certain breeders use wild caught chameleons for different bloodlines, genes, color/morphs and other things. But I tend to look at WC animals in sadnesss. Like dont the breeders feel sad/shameful taking an animal out of its habitat it was used to? Where it recognizes as home? Captive bred animals are always trying to escape of course from time to time but their used being in captivity and being handled by us humans. WC'S must be terrified. I just think its horrible taking an animal out like that. Its like kidnapping:/
Anyways, thats just my opinion, id be thrilled to hear what your opinion is:rolleyes:
 
In the end, its just a chameleon, it won't have any great sentimental attachment to its "home." It will not feel like it has lost love. It might even be happier.
 
It's good and bad. I see both sides to this coin and don't favor one over the other. There are species (not necessarily chams) that are extinct in the wild and only present in private breeding programs. Zoo's can't save all the animals. Had they never been taken from the wild they would be gone forever. It's bad for obvious reasons.

Believe it or not, popularity of wild specimens in a hobby have more than once saved a species by increasing awareness of things like habitat destruction. One of the leading causes of extinction BTW.
 
Well I think you really feel you have a point, and I respect that, so I encourage you to follow what you believe and don't have chameleons, or any other animals that are captive on cages etc. The reason I am saying that if I understand you correctly, WC or CB you are keeping the animals freedom. Never do anything hat you feel goes against your believes.

My personal opinion, is thanks to those WC we are able to breed and continue to propagate the species. Can you imagine if all the demand for this animals had to come from the wild? They would be extinct by now.
 
Bare In mind that all captive bred animals originated from wild caught stock.
That said, I think where possible, CB animals should be given prefrence over WC, if only for the benefit of the buyer (healthier animals/ no acclimitisation required etc etc). If you can aquire a given species CB, its a better choice in terms of conservation, even if a WC may be cheaper.
That said, There are many species being imported, not yet bred in captivity. The sooner these become common/bred in captivity, the better for wild populations in terms of conservation. If there is demand for a species, better it be available CB than further draining wild populations for import, many of which wont survive.
Captive breeding programs are aimed at the same end result, Keeping them around.
The pet reptile hobby is probly the best captive breeding program of all. Many species now common in captivity, were once very small, vulnerable populations in the wild.
Mr & Mrs hobbiest have contributed enormously to herpculture over the years.
:)
 
I hear all of you loud and clear and agree on your parts saying there would be extinct populations had WC's not been bred into captivity. But I just think. I see WC veiled's all the time on kingsnake and chameleon breeder sites. Being that you can find a CB veiled literally in any petstore or on the internet, why do they continue to catch them. I just find it a bit saddening. Its not used to being cooped up in a cage. I keep captive bred Rudis and try hard o stay away from WC's because I know morally the animal is not as confused or as stressed out?
But of course species such as Parsons and some pygmy's do need our conservation efforts but thats just my opinion. Thank you all for sharing, keep the responses coming:)
 
"Its not used to being cooped up in a cage. I keep captive bred Rudis and try hard o stay away from WC's because I know morally the animal is not as confused or as stressed out?"

What is the foundation of this moral knowledge? Personally, I just think you are getting yourself worked up over nothing. You've been afflicted with anthropomorphism, you're putting human traits in things which are distinctly not human.
 
jojackson said:
Bare In mind that all captive bred animals originated from wild caught stock. That said, I think where possible, CB animals should be given prefrence over WC, if only for the benefit of the buyer (healthier animals/ no acclimitisation required etc etc). If you can aquire a given species CB, its a better choice in terms of conservation, even if a WC may be cheaper.
Click to expand...


This is my thinking also. I'll add one more reason to buy CB - less guilt.
 
anthropomorphism at its finest.

The animal cares about surviving; it has a better chance of that in captivity, as long as it is taken care of properly and provided a means of survival and longevity and passing on its genes - it's happy.

However, I truly believe WC specimens should be reserved for big breeders, dedicated to establishing CB populations. Big breeders shouldn't be given just a priority to WC specimens, but exclusive rights to WC specimens.

As you mentioned with veileds, they do NOT need to be taken from the wild because there is a very healthy captive population of them. I think it is absolutely ridiculous that they are still imported.

Some WC do demonstrate certain traits that are popular among hobbyists, and big breeders can use this as an advantage to establishing CB populations. There are sometimes morphs in the wild that do not occur in captivity and taking those WC morphs into captivity increases the chance of establishing a CB population; - and a thriving one at that.

I really believe the herpetoculture community should be the pioneers in establishing a law restricting the importation of WC specimens for the 'average' hobbyist and exclusively providing WC specimens to dedicated, big time breeders.

I hope that in the next several years that people get behind this idea and take an initiative to put a stop to importing unnecessarily; although habitat destruction is a plague against wild animals of all descriptions, the pet trade is up there with it.
 
A lot of the countries these wild caught are being imported from think of these animals as pests and many people would kill them like we do to mice that come into your home. I remember going on vacation to Florida and those annoying little lizards are everywhere like flies here. You can look at it anyway you like, but a lot of times wild caught pets are better off. They are technically safer in our care than they are in the wild. I bet my tiny Senegal probably would be dead if he was still in Ethiopia or where ever he is from. I prefer captive bred as they have less disease and such, but I am not all about thinking it is like kidnapping as he is safer in my care than in the wild and he gets fed and taken care of. It's like adopting a child. It's not like a child chooses who adopts them. You can think of it a million ways how it is right or wrong. It's all a matter of opinion.
 
Yeah I agree its a matter of opinion.
But I just think it sometimes is unneccesary. Even though lots of habitat destruction goes on and stuff and people kill them off, I guess its good in some cases.
 
I'm not really concerned about how well off a WC specimen is in captivity - of course they will be better off. I'm concerned about the impact on the environment everything plays a critical role in - whatever eats that animal isn't better off.

Common reptiles are a food source for many other animals, which is reason enough to reduce harvesting from the wild. Common animals have a lot of waste, which is nutrient dense fertilizer for the plants, which keep the bugs employed. It's a food chain.
 
Complete disagree. Please ask the thousands of members of the dilepis group, how well they feel in captivity or those big numbers of montanes....95 % or even more of them do worse in captivity than in their native ecosystem
 
Indeed Benny. Indeed. As much as I love my odd species, I'd be the happiest person if ALL imports stopped today.

Let's look at some statistics from 2008 and 2009 (these numbers do not include illegally smuggled specimens)

21500 Chamaeleo senegalensis were exported last year. They can lay two clutches a year of upwards of 70 eggs.
16000 Chamaeleo dilepis were exported last year. They breed once a year with clutches of 60 eggs.
4000 Trioceros melleri were exported last year. They breed once a year with clutches of 50-70 eggs.
3000 Kingongia multituberculata were exported last year. They breed several times a year and lay on average 15 eggs per clutch.
2000 Furcifer lateralis lateralis exported last year. They lay upwards of 6 times a year or more and lay on average 20 per clutch.

How many viable babies were born from those imported parents last year? How many of those original specimens are still alive this year? I'll venture to say close to 0 for both questions. It was zero (or thereabouts) for 2007 and 2006 and 2005 and so on and so on...

We don't need 'new blood' in breeding programs if we can't even keep the 'old blood' alive in the first place.

Trace
 
Nice signature btw !

Complete agree, Trace ! According to the number of important animals the few CB ones are a drop in the ocean. Just read the threads here, about how people "kill" their animals... (and we are often talking here about calyptratus and pardalis :eek:). I lost also many chameleons but it often seems to be bratty how others here do it...

I bet that without WC, all species excluding calyptratus and pardalis, maybe as well lateralis, will extinct in captivity
 
Yeah Kent touched on it for a little bit... But as far as Veileds... The only WC's I have seen are from Florida... Where they are a feral species anyway. A feral population that is apparently protected and utilized by the Cham Community(Breeders).:( I still think that in future years this will bite us in the ars.
 
Brock said:
anthropomorphism at its finest.

The animal cares about surviving; it has a better chance of that in captivity, as long as it is taken care of properly and provided a means of survival and longevity and passing on its genes - it's happy.

However, I truly believe WC specimens should be reserved for big breeders, dedicated to establishing CB populations. Big breeders shouldn't be given just a priority to WC specimens, but exclusive rights to WC specimens.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree also. I dont believe even half of these specimen care about surviving by the time they make it to us nor do they have a better chance of survival. Being that the importation process is complete hell on them, I believe (that is if they had any kind of hindsight:rolleyes:) they would have rather been eaten by a bird or snake than being picked off their tree by a greedy human.

And what "bigger breeders" would you give these animals too? If I could find a big breeder of any of the Kinyongia species I would pay BIG BUCKS to acquire the CH/CB specimen. We already do this for some of the farm raised species but besides these farms who is working with them on a big scale?

Shall only the bigger pardalis and calyptratus breeders be allowed to try and breed them? Im sure SOME of them have had their share of experience with other species (FLchams, Chuck G, Chamco.) but what exclusive pardalis and calyptratus breeders are set up to provide montane chameleons with very high humidiity and very low night time temps that are detrimental to their health? I think these chams would be better off in the hands of Trace, Susan James, Chris A., FLchams just to name a few familiar faces around here.

I dont think limiting them to bigger breeders will have any kind of impact besides maybe fewer specimen that are taken from the wild. Im sure it wouldnt have much of a "positive" impact on the hobby and chameleons in captivity.
 
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