What are the symptoms of old age in Chams?

[Lindsey]

Hello all!
I have a 5 1/2 year old male veiled chameleon that I think is finally starting to show signs of old age... Here some info

Cage Info:
Cage Type - 260 Flexarium
Lighting - Heat lamps, and 10.0 UV fluorescent bulbs (last changed 8 months ago)
Temperature - 85-90 F in the basking spot, lowest overnight temp is about 65 F. I don't know the actual temperature of the bottom of the tank, but considering its 6 feet tall I'm assuming its room temperature down there.
Humidity - About 65-70%. I mist daily.
Plants - No live plants in his tank, but I have live plant in the room he is kept in.
Placement - In my bedroom. Low traffic, decent ventilation (gets a little stuffy in the winter when I can't open my window).
Location - Alberta, Canada (Edmonton)

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Veiled Chameleon, Male, I have owned him for five years, he was adolescent when I bought him, so I'm guessing 5 1/2 years old
Handling - Only when necessary. He's a chameleon, he doesn't like being man-handled.
Feeding - Mainly silkworms and hornworms (when I can get them) nowdays, and superworms in between the days I can't get silks. He has not been as interested in superworms lately, but will eat them if i drop them in his mouth. He will eagerly go after silkworms, but usually eat only 1 or two in a feeding.
Supplements - I dust his superworms every time I feed supers, but not the silks
Watering - I mist him daily. Occasionally he will drink, if its was a dry day. (I live in northern alberta, the outside humidity is never high...)
Fecal Description - Solid black poop and white urea. He was treated for parasites a year and a half ago, when I had a problem with an eye infection that was quickly and easily treated (my vet is great).
History - Again, a year and a half ago he was treated for parasites and an eye infection and quickly recovered.
Current Problem - I think he's just old, but I want to make sure its not something that I can help with before doing nothing. He is slower, not as interested in food (except for Silkworms). He has also had poor aim since his eye infection, i believe is because he lost some sight in the one eye, so i have a shallow dish where he can get like an inch away from his food before he tries to eat it, and I also handfeed him superworms if i can't get silks.

But today I noticed that just his finger knuckles have big hard bumps on them. It looks to me like an arthritic humans hand, with big knuckles. So I took him out today (much to his dismay) to see if his grip is weakened because I thought it could be MBD, and it doesn't feel like it (yet at least).

Maybe he is just old, and I was hoping he would live longer than the 4-6 year lifespan. Or not. Any ideas?

Also, sorry the e-mail is so long... there is alot of questions to answer!

Thanks!

Lindsey

 

[jannb]

It's time to change the UV bulb unless you are checking it with a UV meter. Is it the tube style blub?

You need to put some live "safe" plants in his cage.

Exactly what kind of supplements are you using? It's important when they get older to use a bit more supplements. He needs 3 different kinds. Plain calcium, Calcium with d3 and a multi vit. with a tad of A in it and that might help his eye. I used the 1st, 3rd and 5th here: http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/reptile-supplies/vitamins-medicines-and-cage-cleaners/

Very important that he drink. He should have a dripper.

A vet check up at this time would be a very good idea and the vet could check the bumps on his knuckles. That could be serious.

 

[DNA]

It's time to change the UV bulb unless you are checking it with a UV meter. Is it the tube style blub?.

In my experience, The UV bulb could be used more than one year.

I have metered more than one year old ZOOMED sun5.0 with solarmeter 6.2.

The UV bulb can be used as long as the numerical value is in 15-34 mw/cm2.

 

[jannb]

I have a UV meter and check my bulbs often but from reading the forums it seems that it's recommended to change the UV blub ever 6 months for those that don't have the meter. It might last long but why chance it. My daughter also uses a meter and onec check a bran new bulb....right out of the box that was already bad.

 

[sandrachameleon]

what supplements do you use? what do you gutload with?
have you tried offering something other than larva, like a cricket or roach?
do you have photos of the feet,toes? have you taken him to the vet?

 

[Lindsey]

I change the UV bulb every 8-10 months even though the bulb say it lasts 1 year (I don't really believe it) so mine is due for a change soon. and I use a calcuim + D3 powder and a mltivitamin.

How long has other peoples veiled chams lived?

 

[Lindsey]

also, if they don't drink I thought that was a good sign, because they would be getting enough moisture from the humidity and his food. I have always only been a little worried when he started to drink all the time, so I would up the humidity.

 

[Lindsey]

Any ways, I just wanted to know if anyone else who has owned a veiled cham for its entire lifespan has noticed bumpy knuckles as a sign of old age or if it is something else entirely.

 

[jannb]

also, if they don't drink I thought that was a good sign, because they would be getting enough moisture from the humidity and his food. I have always only been a little worried when he started to drink all the time, so I would up the humidity.

They need to drink ALLOT. Look at this video of Luie drinking. He drinks this much 3 or 4 times a week. https://www.chameleonforums.com/luie-having-drink-water-dropper-30703/

Bumpy knuckles are not normal and you need to take him to the vets.

 

[jannb]

I change the UV bulb every 8-10 months even though the bulb say it lasts 1 year (I don't really believe it) so mine is due for a change soon. and I use a calcuim + D3 powder and a mltivitamin.

How long has other peoples veiled chams lived?

The supplement you should use the most would be the plain calcium with no d3. Use it at just about every feeding. Use the d3 and the multi twice a month. Luckykarma's veiled lived to 7 years check out his profile. https://www.chameleonforums.com/members/luckykarma-albums-life-karma.html

 

[Dave Weldon]

...bumpy knuckles as a sign of old age or if it is something else entirely.

Howdy Lindsey,

Some of my old necropsy photos of another keeper's Panther... Sorry if this is a bit graphic but does his "bumpy knuckles" look like this?

If so then it may be Tophaceous gout:

"Tophaceous gout which is the inability to excrete uric acid resulting in urate crystal deposits in cartilage, sinovial membranes, tendons, and soft tissue"...
http://www.reptilerepublic.com/unive...al-veiled.html

When these signs are visible from the outside there is likely organ damage (kidneys) elsewhere. I don't think levels like this are reversible. I don't know many of the reasons for gouty deposits to form but it can often be traced to diet. High (animal) protein diets have some linkage thus the reason that we don't gutload feeder insects with cat/dog food, for example. It suppose that even if a keeper did everything perfectly, gout may still be possible due to genetics etc. but more often, again, it goes back to our husbandry.

Here's a paper on gout written by Dr. Mader:
http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2009_V716.pdf#page=1

All of this may not even be what's going on with your chameleon .

Got photos?

 

[Lindsey]

Thanks for answering my question Dave Weldon.

Archie's look similar, not as big though. Have you dealt with reptiles with gout much?

Do you know if there would have been any other symptoms that I should have noticed before the bumps appeared? Because his bowel movements have been normal and there is the solid urea present still.

These must have developed very quickly, the last couple weeks or so, but I can't be sure because I don't handle him unless I need to to reduce stress. Is that normal for gout?

I will leave an update after the vet visit and try to get some photos.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy Lindsey,

I had multiple run-ins with gout in other peoples' chameleons. I don't think anyone had much of a time-line to share so I can't say how long it took to develop to the point where it was noticeable . Just as was mentioned in Mader's paper, I also saw the results of gout attacking a chameleon's pericardial heart sack. It looked like a heart wrapped in concrete .

Post those photos.

 

[Lindsey]

Here's some photos Dave

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy Lindsey,

It looks like it could be gout. Do all 4 feet look like that? If so then that likely eliminates the possibility of an infection. I can't think of much to do other then to review hydration, supplementation, feeders and gutloading. If you've got a good reptile vet, show them and see what they think .

 

[sandrachameleon]

Thanks for posting photos. It does look like gout to me.

again, curious to know what you are feeding your supers and silkies. Also curious to know the ratio of supers to silkies (how many supers does it get a week vs silkies). Given these are your two primary feeders, it should be fairly educational to learn how this diet may have contributed to the problem.

You may be able to slow the progression by making changes.

 

[Lindsey]

Just the front feet. He gets mostly probably about an equal amount of silkworms vs. superworms. I dust the supers with calcium and vitamins. The silks eat mulberry (i wasn't aware they could eat anything other than what the supplier gave us with them) and the supers eat vegetables and fruit, whatever I have around my house usually. from carrots to apples to peppers. I'll let you know what the vet says. There is only one vet in Edmonton that I know of (or more precisely that I actually trust) who deals with reptiles, so I hope there isn't a wait for an appointment, otherwise I'm in for a long wait as a walk-in patient. updates later this week

 

[Lindsey]

Vet results are in

The report goes as follows:
"Archie overall is looking pretty well, but the swellings on his feet are definitely a concern. From the radiographs it appears there is soft tissue swelling and osteomylitis (bone infection) too.
Cytology of the fine needle aspirates are also suggestive of infection, so we are starting him on antibiotics and also sending a swab for culture and sensitivity testing at the lab. This could come back negative, but if not it could give us very helpful information as far as therapy goes.
Please give oral medication as prescribed, book him for a recheck in 14-21 days, and let me know how things go. I will phone with the lab results in a week or so.
The fecal exam was negative, which is great!"

I saw the x-rays and the doc said it looks like his bone is getting degraded a bit in the area of infection. He also said it was good I came as early as possible, otherwise it could have spread as septicemia and that would be kind of a death sentence.

After the lab culture results come back we may change our treatment depending on what type of bacteria they find (Baytril may not do the trick) but were using Baytril in the meantime.

I have a good feeling, because other than they swollen front feet Archie still eats and drinks. And Dr. Kwantes said his bone density is great (other than the infected bit) so he has enough calcium.

Thanks for all the help guys! I'll keep you posted!

Lindsey

 

[sandrachameleon]

Thanks for the updates. Hope Archie gets better!

 

[ciafardo 4]

I have a UV meter and check my bulbs often but from reading the forums it seems that it's recommended to change the UV blub ever 6 months for those that don't have the meter. It might last long but why chance it. My daughter also uses a meter and onec check a bran new bulb....right out of the box that was already bad.

Hey Jann you know who started the change your bulbs after 6 months? The light bulb manufactures , and i think we know why.