What makes the sun better than UVB?

[jamest0o0]

So I'm just looking for someone with knowledge on why or with a link that can explain exactly what makes the sun superior to uvb lighting. At least when it comes to d3 and bone health.

Based on my own experiences and what I have read, sun is most definitely superior I'm not arguing that. My chams will literally jump on me because it means going outside, just to sit in a cheap smaller cage and bask in the sun.

As for physical health though, the readings on a solarmeter show that uvb lighting puts out more uvb than what's here outside even on a sunny day. But we hear, and I believe this too, that even shade is superior to our artificial lighting.

So what is it about sun that makes it so much better? Im guessing it more efficiently distributes the uvb rays with a complete light spectrum(which reptiles show to benefit from as is), while with artificial lighting, we make up for that by pumping out more, but also risking melanoma, eye conditions, etc in the process?

 

[jannb]

The sun or being outside (most wild chameleons are found in the shade) is natural. My vet says he and his colleagues are seeing more and more skin cancer in chameleons caused from artificial UVB. He said it’s just like us laying in a tanning bed.

 

[nightanole]

What uvb meter are you using? UVI is much higher outside vs a uvb bulb. A T8 10.0 is like 1 uvi at 12", on a cloudy day uvi is a 3.0. A T5 HO 12% at 18" is like a 3.5.

As for why the sun is better, the sun is full spectrum, and the spectrum does change throughout the day. It might be 6500k at noon during the summer, but its a lot redder during the morning and evening, and its a lot cooler(no pun intended) in the winter(if your region has winter).

Also you have to look at a uvb bulb to get the complete picture. A florescent from the hardware store only puts out 3 colors, red green,and blue. That is because they only have 3 phosphors. This is why sometimes orange looks horrible on some monitors, and why your room may look completely different depending on the lighting(honey did we paint these 2 rooms the same color, this one is brown and this one is blue?).

"reptile bulbs" have up to 7 phosphors. RGB, UVB/UVA, and some form of CMY.

Our brains have a unique ability to only need to see RGB bouncing off of something to interpret every color. Every video display you have ever seen, as never had a Yellow pixel, or a Cyan or Magenta. Using various levels of RGB we can mimic all colors.

Now here comes the problem. Its "hard" to get UVB/UVA phosphors to wear evenly, and to last a long time. This is why bulbs are replaced as early as 6 months, the UVB is over half as dim as when it started 2000 hours ago. Cancer and eye problems occur when the phosphor goes too deep into the UVB zone. Older UVB meters (6.2) where made for tanning beds and other medical devices to detect these shifts. They were never meant for reptile owners to check high UVB spectrum, that was a biproduct.

Im sure everyone remembers the first gen CFL's with UVB. They got the formula wrong, and in short term tests, everything looked good. Run the bulb a few hundred hours and the spectrum would shift and put out massive amounts of non terrestrial UVC. That is getting close to the xray spectum, and to UVC, the top layer of skin (human or lizard) is not opaque. Closing your eyes doesnt help at all.


What is causing skin cancer in lizards is still up for debate. We didnt have this problem in the 80's/90's, but we also didnt have panthers living 5-6 years either. Is is the fact we are exposing the lizards to low level uvb continuously for 4-8 hours a day when it should be high levels for only 2, 1 hour sessions? Another theory is we/they always have cancer cells, but something is causing them to not die off before they form tissue. Cancer is a formless tissue, infact the only way it gets energy is by sucking up insulin, since it cant form is only energy reserves. So one of the newer theories is that constant food (doesnt matter if its over or under your daily requirements) combined with low insulin sensitivity muscles(atrophy from lack of exercise) creates an environment where the cancer doesnt have as much competition. And that outside factors have little to do with it.

 

[Curlytails]

So I'm just looking for someone with knowledge on why or with a link that can explain exactly what makes the sun superior to uvb lighting. At least when it comes to d3 and bone health.

Based on my own experiences and what I have read, sun is most definitely superior I'm not arguing that. My chams will literally jump on me because it means going outside, just to sit in a cheap smaller cage and bask in the sun.

As for physical health though, the readings on a solarmeter show that uvb lighting puts out more uvb than what's here outside even on a sunny day. But we hear, and I believe this too, that even shade is superior to our artificial lighting.

So what is it about sun that makes it so much better? Im guessing it more efficiently distributes the uvb rays with a complete light spectrum(which reptiles show to benefit from as is), while with artificial lighting, we make up for that by pumping out more, but also risking melanoma, eye conditions, etc in the process?

i think its more intense and it is more efficient if you will as the tubes which are glass only let a certain amount of radiation through. but i havent got a physics degree so im not 100% sure

 

[jamest0o0]

What uvb meter are you using? UVI is much higher outside vs a uvb bulb. A T8 10.0 is like 1 uvi at 12", on a cloudy day uvi is a 3.0. A T5 HO 12% at 18" is like a 3.5.

As for why the sun is better, the sun is full spectrum, and the spectrum does change throughout the day. It might be 6500k at noon during the summer, but its a lot redder during the morning and evening, and its a lot cooler(no pun intended) in the winter(if your region has winter).

Also you have to look at a uvb bulb to get the complete picture. A florescent from the hardware store only puts out 3 colors, red green,and blue. That is because they only have 3 phosphors. This is why sometimes orange looks horrible on some monitors, and why your room may look completely different depending on the lighting(honey did we paint these 2 rooms the same color, this one is brown and this one is blue?).

"reptile bulbs" have up to 7 phosphors. RGB, UVB/UVA, and some form of CMY.

Our brains have a unique ability to only need to see RGB bouncing off of something to interpret every color. Every video display you have ever seen, as never had a Yellow pixel, or a Cyan or Magenta. Using various levels of RGB we can mimic all colors.

Now here comes the problem. Its "hard" to get UVB/UVA phosphors to wear evenly, and to last a long time. This is why bulbs are replaced as early as 6 months, the UVB is over half as dim as when it started 2000 hours ago. Cancer and eye problems occur when the phosphor goes too deep into the UVB zone. Older UVB meters (6.2) where made for tanning beds and other medical devices to detect these shifts. They were never meant for reptile owners to check high UVB spectrum, that was a biproduct.

Im sure everyone remembers the first gen CFL's with UVB. They got the formula wrong, and in short term tests, everything looked good. Run the bulb a few hundred hours and the spectrum would shift and put out massive amounts of non terrestrial UVC. That is getting close to the xray spectum, and to UVC, the top layer of skin (human or lizard) is not opaque. Closing your eyes doesnt help at all.


What is causing skin cancer in lizards is still up for debate. We didnt have this problem in the 80's/90's, but we also didnt have panthers living 5-6 years either. Is is the fact we are exposing the lizards to low level uvb continuously for 4-8 hours a day when it should be high levels for only 2, 1 hour sessions? Another theory is we/they always have cancer cells, but something is causing them to not die off before they form tissue. Cancer is a formless tissue, infact the only way it gets energy is by sucking up insulin, since it cant form is only energy reserves. So one of the newer theories is that constant food (doesnt matter if its over or under your daily requirements) combined with low insulin sensitivity muscles(atrophy from lack of exercise) creates an environment where the cancer doesnt have as much competition. And that outside factors have little to do with it.

Great response! Sorry I'm just getting back to this now. Been busy with a newborn. I am using the solarmeter 6.5. I get higher readings in the basking spot than I do outside, but I'm wondering if maybe I need to change the battery. Also, awhile back I was thinking, it would be nice if we had UVB bulbs that could ramp up and down. Like you said, having full output for a few hours midday and lower morning/night.

 

[Tucklander]

The sun or being outside (most wild chameleons are found in the shade) is natural. My vet says he and his colleagues are seeing more and more skin cancer in chameleons caused from artificial UVB. He said it’s just like us laying in a tanning bed.

That makes a good bit of since , great analogy...

 

[amfire125]

I've also wondered if people see a difference in the basking bulbs (using regular incandescent bulbs or the zoomed basking bulbs) in terms of what they actually put out. I'm sure the chams love the full spectrum sunshine! Even though a lot of UVB doesn't get through glass, the most happy green color I've seen my new juvi (in my care for THREE days now) was when he was on my curtain hanging out in front of the window. So obviously they love the real sunshine. As a physics nerd I'm totally going to be doing more research into this!