when is a cham a " senior"

[little leaf]

I have 2 chams who are "getting up there" in age , is there any changes I should start to make in their care? one is my Jax Olive- I know she is at least 3 -4 ,but has no health issue ( at the moment and I want to keep it that way !! ) and the other is poor Max - he can shot his tongue now about 6" - but everything is in like slow- mo - EVERYTHING about him - I wonder if he will ever be normal again from his spider bite - I keep him now in a 18 X 36 because he always falls - and he spends more time out of his cage than in, and I know that sounds small for him- but falling 4' several times a day was to risky ( I feel - am I wrong? ) and sooner or later I think he was going to get hurt - he would cart wheel off all the vines and branches, and never catch a one on the way down - so I put him in the 36" - is that ok ?? he seems more willing to move about in there- he still falls- but he can manage to get a hold of something usually - the only thing I have noticed as he has aged , his feet never seem to shed - the sole of them - and his toes on the very end- is that an age thing?
anyway, I know many of you have older chams- I was just wondering if the care of senior chams is any different than the care of adult chams
if I am wrong to keep Max in that size cage, please offer an alternative - he has been in it about 2/3 weeks - he pretty much only sleeps in it , and seems ok, actually happier - but it just goes agents everything size wise I know -

thanks guys

 

[jastate09]

It sounds like Max maybe showing signs of aging. A smaller cage or even a mesh net half way down in a larger cage works fine.

 

[little leaf]

It sounds like Max maybe showing signs of aging. A smaller cage or even a mesh net half way down in a larger cage works fine.

I did think about a net at first , but I would have to cut it in so many places to get it around the plants, vines, and logs - it would pretty much be worthless - I had the cage really thick - but I think he "gained speed" as he fell, he never seemed to be able to stop himself- it was so sad - and I he looked so scared when I would collect him off the floor of the cage- I was just not sure what to do w/ him - so I moved him into an "apartment" - lol

 

[jastate09]

I did think about a net at first , but I would have to cut it in so many places to get it around the plants, vines, and logs - it would pretty much be worthless - I had the cage really thick - but I think he "gained speed" as he fell, he never seemed to be able to stop himself- it was so sad - and I he looked so scared when I would collect him off the floor of the cage- I was just not sure what to do w/ him - so I moved him into an "apartment" - lol

Could be arthritis. Has your vet done an xray?

 

[sandrachameleon]

one of my panthers, when very much on in years (over 6), started to lose gripping power on his hind leg feet, and was starting to fall. I did much the same thing you are doing - gave him a shorter cage. I also put a folded bath towel on the bottom, to cushion any fall, and added more things for him to grab onto (but also with more give, so that if he fell onto then they would flex a bit rather than cause injury). I used a wider cage as well, and concentrated the heat on one side. He still had somewhat of a heat gradient top to bottom, as is natural, but also a bit side to side. I also ensured the heat in the room he/his cage was in never went very low. I had increased water availability, using a second additional and larger dripper that lasted longer, because I feared he wasn't moving fast enough to get to the drippers like he used to. I gave him more of his favourite foods, and sometimes injected roaches with some water to help with hydration. I started holding a dish of food/prey (in addition to his normal feeding bowls) right in front of his face at dinner time (this old fella was very "friendly") so he didn't even have to move to hunt if he didn't want to.
My guy didn't shed his feet well either - once or twice I soaked his feet in warm water - but unless a toe appeared to be loosing circulation I didn't fuss about it.

Now that I have an exotics vet I trust, unlike before, I would now also be considering if there was an ointment for his skin/feet, exploratory xrays and possible pain meds.

 

[ChamLady]

Don't ever apologize for doing what you have to do for an ailing or elderly pet. You're doing great. Maybe it's time to remove some plants and fill the corners with leafy vines. I've read of people using reptile hammocks for aging Chams. Maybe some slanted bird ladders would act as ramps. Wishing you the best.

 

[little leaf]

Could be arthritis. Has your vet done an xray?

no , we have not done X ray - this all started after his spider bite - but it seems like his has MS - my sister had MS - before she passed - the way he moves, reminds me of that - he has seen the vet many times- I just have a running tab there now thanks to Olive- he eats , drinks, no swollen areas on his limbs or anyplace - its just like ever since the bite- he is just on slow mo - the bite was pretty bad - it made part of his face fall off - the skin - it came back, but you can see a bit of a mark still - and the spider was SO tiny - I could not believe the damage it did - I dont even know how the stupid thing got in there - I knew something was upsetting him before he got bit- I took EVERYTHING out of his cage, but I must have put it right back in when I put the stuff back in - I will take him for an X-ray just to be sure- but my vet who does the X ray is in Hawaii until Tue/ ( I was suppose to go too- but could not get anyone to watch my chams I almost was going to ship them all to Laurie to get babysat - but OMG- their air fair was about as much as mine ! )

 

[little leaf]

one of my panthers, when very much on in years (over 6), started to lose gripping power on his hind leg feet, and was starting to fall. I did much the same thing you are doing - gave him a shorter cage. I also put a folded bath towel on the bottom, to cushion any fall, and added more things for him to grab onto (but also with more give, so that if he fell onto then they would flex a bit rather than cause injury). I used a wider cage as well, and concentrated the heat on one side. He still had somewhat of a heat gradient top to bottom, as is natural, but also a bit side to side. I also ensured the heat in the room he/his cage was in never went very low. I had increased water availability, using a second additional and larger dripper that lasted longer, because I feared he wasn't moving fast enough to get to the drippers like he used to. I gave him more of his favourite foods, and sometimes injected roaches with some water to help with hydration. I started holding a dish of food/prey (in addition to his normal feeding bowls) right in front of his face at dinner time (this old fella was very "friendly") so he didn't even have to move to hunt if he didn't want to.
My guy didn't shed his feet well either - once or twice I soaked his feet in warm water - but unless a toe appeared to be loosing circulation I didn't fuss about it.

Now that I have an exotics vet I trust, unlike before, I would now also be considering if there was an ointment for his skin/feet, exploratory xrays and possible pain meds.

thanks- thats what I was kinda wondering if he need a warmer night temp - his water, he has his little bottle cap - lol he will sit at the dripper , let the water run over his nose- but drinks from the cap - this may sound stupid- but would a " heat wave" on like the back side be a good idea? or is the heat to dry - our house does get pretty cold at night - panther wise- I never planed on keeping panthers - only Jax, but when they came in , well, they are here to stay - lol I do keep them in the warmer part of the house - but it still gets sown to like 65 - is that to cold for him do you think? how did you heat your cage at night? I really dont like the ceramic heater things- they get to hot - I have many wire and tubes running on the tops - I tired putting those vines in that look like they have dirt on them- the are really rough- I dont want to "slam" any product - but they we so rough that he got sores on the bottom of his feet - so I took them back out- his feet healed , but I dont even use the vines in any cages now due to that - and the other thing, w/ those vines- Gail had rubbed her eye on one, and some of that stuff got stuck in her eye- I do not like them , now I use the Flukers ones that look like real wood, but are really soft - they are like a foam kinda

 

[radstusky]

My panther Leo is definitely showing signs of his age, he is almost 4 now. His tongue doesn't shoot normally for the most part, and when it does function his aim is usually off. I've seen him grab silkworms with his mouth rather than get them the normal way with his tongue. Normally I try to hand-feed him and just basically place the food right on his tongue. For hydration, I offer him water by pipette at least once a week. He normally slurps up several pipettes full.

Other than the tongue issues, I think he's very healthy at the moment. He doesn't have any issues with falling, and his grip is good. Earlier this year he did have some foot issues, which caused him to stop eating, but I was able to treat that and he's made a full recovery.

As for temps, going down to 65 should not be a problem at all for them. In fact, my daytime room temp is probably only about 68. Of course they have heat lamps to warm them up from there.

 

[jannb]

I've noticed that normally the first thing that goes as they get older is their tongue. At first it just doesn't shoot right then it stops working all together and you have to hand feed. Eventually, they don't want to eat and you have to assist feed. Three of my older guys had arthritis and one had hardening of the arteries. If it's arthritis there's some good meds for that now with the Adequan injections, Medacam and the Tramadol for pain. Do what ever it takes to keep him from falling and getting hurt.

 

[sandrachameleon]

thanks- thats what I was kinda wondering if he need a warmer night temp ...would a " heat wave" on like the back side be a good idea? or is the heat to dry - our house does get pretty cold at night - panther wise- I never planed on keeping panthers ... it still gets sown to like 65 - is that to cold for him do you think? how did you heat your cage at night?

65F is not normally too cold, but I kept his room (the whole room, not just his cage) at 69F day and night when he got old (obviously he could get warmer during day under the light). I use a digital electric oil-filled radiator - these are very efficient and safe. My house can get down cold at night in winter, since I only heat the whole house when I'm awake and around. I don't want to waste, so instead of heating the whole house I just heat the rooms the pets use when Im not around. I don't know if choosing to keep the elder cham room warm was /is a good thing or not, just seemed right, and I've stuck with that practice for all my elder chams since. I kinda treat them like babies. more direct attention to make sure they don't get too hot or cold, don't dehydrate, eat properly, etc

 

[Dr O]

Pixel is about 7 now, arthritic and his missing toenails that he had when I bought him are making it very tough for him to hold onto smooth branches, he does much better on Bio-vines. he gets Metacam q 72 hours and it certainly helps him get around. no tongue issues whatsoever.

 

[carol5208]

My Lenny has been in my care for about 20 months now. The previous owner had told me he was 4 , said he was born in March, then emailed me and said December. I am not [positive if he really knew for sure! Whatever the case, he is atleast 5 1/2 either going to be 6 in Dec or March. He does not get around well and chooses to sit on the bottom of his cage. He is not hot, he does it when the temps are cold too. It is like he knows, and feels safe down there. I have two parallel branches in his indoor cage that I set him on there so he can hold on with all 4 feet and bask under his light. He seems comfortable up there, and I have the whole bottom lined with about a foot deep of towels in case he falls and he will crawl and sit down there too. Outside, if I set him up high up he climbs right down to the bottom and stays the day down there! I have a few branches that lay on the bottom, and sometimes he climbs up on those. I feed him right on the cage floor, but remarkably he can fire his tongue like a youngster and his aim is spot on!!! His grip is not good. He was hanging his one leg one day and I took him to the vet. Xrays did not really show anything. I had him on Metacam for awhile and he does not hang his foot anymore, so I took him off of it. Oh yeah, he is gular edema but he has had that for about 3 years now and he came to me like that. Also, he just shed all 4 of his little feet with no problem!

 

[little leaf]

Pixel is about 7 now, arthritic and his missing toenails that he had when I bought him are making it very tough for him to hold onto smooth branches, he does much better on Bio-vines. he gets Metacam q 72 hours and it certainly helps him get around. no tongue issues whatsoever.

can you tell me who has these vines? I googled them - but it bring up all vines- the ones I have in for him now are like a foam, he does much better on them than the " dirt" ones- those I am sure are what caused his foot sores - they are like sand paper

my other thought is real grape vine - we have many grape vines , thin thew very thick - but the bark on them worries me that it may get in his eye- or am I worrying for nothing ? anyone else use grape vine - how do they do with it ?

 

[MelissaB]

Can you sandblast the grape vine? I see sandblasted grapevine for sale at a lot of the reptile supply places, but I've never bought any. What about the Fluker's Bend-A-Vine? They'd be softer if he falls and lands on it. I bought one for my baby panther, and I really like the texture on it. It has a nubby feel, without being rough.

 

[pssh]

My first chameleon, a veiled, started to hang out a little lower in the cage and didnt have a grip like he used to. He fell a little more often, but not a ton. Maybe once every week or two at the most. He was otherwise fairly normal except for the last few days of his life (started to near age 7.)

My oldest right now is 5.5 years old and is also a veiled. He lost his tongue about six months ago and so he has to be hand fed, but is fairly normal. I did notice that around age 4 he needed to stop eating so much. He only ate about 1-2 times a week (7-10 crickets equivalent total) or he would gain a lot of weight (if he would even eat anything more than that.) I started feeding him one or two bugs every day or two and he does well on it. He doesnt move a whole lot and mostly only moves up to bask and then right back down to the mid-low zone in the cage. He still has his death grip so far (makes me bleed sometimes!) he's gotten more gentle though, either from age or the loss of his tongue. He doesnt try to take off my fingers anymore.

I suggest putting something nice and soft on the bottom of the cage for falling problems. Non-pill fleece will allow the water to drain through and still provide a cusion. Just dont use fabric softener or the water cant drain. I had issues with crickets eating those flukers vines (5+ years ago,) but if you dont feed him crickets dont worry about it. They are much better for falling I have found. They seem like they have more give. Also, the less stuff (branches, vines, etc.) around the bottom the better so he can fall straight onto the fleece.

 

[little leaf]

My first chameleon, a veiled, started to hang out a little lower in the cage and didnt have a grip like he used to. He fell a little more often, but not a ton. Maybe once every week or two at the most. He was otherwise fairly normal except for the last few days of his life (started to near age 7.)

My oldest right now is 5.5 years old and is also a veiled. He lost his tongue about six months ago and so he has to be hand fed, but is fairly normal. I did notice that around age 4 he needed to stop eating so much. He only ate about 1-2 times a week (7-10 crickets equivalent total) or he would gain a lot of weight (if he would even eat anything more than that.) I started feeding him one or two bugs every day or two and he does well on it. He doesnt move a whole lot and mostly only moves up to bask and then right back down to the mid-low zone in the cage. He still has his death grip so far (makes me bleed sometimes!) he's gotten more gentle though, either from age or the loss of his tongue. He doesnt try to take off my fingers anymore.

I suggest putting something nice and soft on the bottom of the cage for falling problems. Non-pill fleece will allow the water to drain through and still provide a cusion. Just dont use fabric softener or the water cant drain. I had issues with crickets eating those flukers vines (5+ years ago,) but if you dont feed him crickets dont worry about it. They are much better for falling I have found. They seem like they have more give. Also, the less stuff (branches, vines, etc.) around the bottom the better so he can fall straight onto the fleece.

that is kinda how he is- he only goes from his basking to the center of his plant - he no longer has the urge to "wander" his cage- but he is out most of the day hanging out w/ me - I let him in about every hr or so to see if he wants a drink - but he has a bask bulb out of his cage too- but he mostly wants to just sit to the side of it- not really under it - I do have those flukers bend a branch vines for him, and in his 4' cage I did try to make a "net" out of vines, but he could never catch them - some of the falls he took- they sounded really bad - I felt like he was going to kill himself falling - so I moved him to the smaller cage - I think he go so scared to fall in the big one, because he always did- he started to refuse to move - at least in this smaller cage, he does move about more- but not like in a " AHHH - get me out of here" kind of way, more like a " hmmm- lets go over here" - lol with Olive, the only thing I have really noticed w/ her , is she is not near as crabby as she used to be- but then when she did that slug thing , all the shots, and vet visits , she hates me again but health wise- she shows no difference from the 2 yr old -

Thanks everyone for all your help, I really appreciate it , I just want to be sure I am doing what is needed for them now that they are getting a bit... "old " ( but arnt we all )

 

[sandrachameleon]

one of the things I use as "vines" are coated electrical cables. Like you would wire your home with. Comes in lots of colours (I go with XHHW building wire, , Thermoplastic High Heat-resistant Nylon green coated, thick black ones, medium thick brown , thin telephone wire brown, grey landscape wire,). they are bendable, because of the wire, but also flexible and you can leave slack in them easily.

 

[little leaf]

hmmm - that may be a good idea for my smaller guys- his feet are so fat - and he just has no traction/ grip it seems, the other thing I thought of was pool noodles - lol or pipe insulation foam tubes - I will admit- everyone has some really good ideas on stuff - this forum is AWESOME
for my fainting carpet , I use coated tomato wire- its like a rubber coated thick wire - and its green so it matches her

 

[junglefries]

Like you said he spends more time outside the cage than inside. therefore, while inside he should feel snug and secure while resting. a possible solution to the cart wheels could be something as simple as an iguana hammock suspended middle of the cage. he can still walk around it, but be caught like a trapeeze artist if falls. any help???