when to move to a larger cage?

[Dan]

Hello everyone and happy holidays!! Hope everyone is having a good one.

Ok so..... Ive got a pair of panthers, that are about 4.5months old. Right now they are living in a smaller cage together. It is 18in wide x 12in deep x 14in high. The male is about 5inches from nose to vent, and the female is about 3 inches from nose to vent.

They seem to be getting alot great. The female gets a little angry and puffs up if the male gets to close. But they roam the cage freely around each other, and I even see them "relaxing" right next to each other fairly often.

I am feeinding them a mix of small and medium crickets, and they get treats of phenoix worms, wolly worms, and maggots. they LOVE the wolly worms.

So, ive got two questions. The first being, is when I should move them into the larger cage I am setting up for them. it is 2ft wide x 2ft deep x 3ft high. I think the male might be large enough, but im not sure about the female. How do I know when they are ready for a larger cage?

My second question, is when should I be worried about the male courting the female, and all of that stuff? And, what signs should I be looking to know if they are courting or not?

Thanks everyone!

 

[dodolah]

personally i think all your male chameleon is ready to move to a bigger cage.
But, you can tell by their action sometimes.
They start getting restless, always trying to get out. stay brown all the time or rubbing their nose against the enclosure.

but, 5 inches (body only, right?) is already too big for that cage,
go ahead and move him to his permanent cage.

The female can wait for another week or so.

 

[Justin Carl]

yea you need to seperate them. you will notice when they are in different cages they will grow much faster. it is like the stress or something keeps them from growing.

 

[Dan]

Even though they seem fine together, you think they need to be seperated? How do I know when the female can have a larger cage? Is there a certain size that should be reached before moving them?

 

[dodolah]

yes, you do need to separate them. 3 months old is usually the border age where they stop tolerating each other.

You can know by 3 indications:
1. Size. (usually when they are about 4 inches or more)
2. Age. (when they reached juvie stage 5.5 months)
3. Behavior (like i wrote in my last post)

Whichever of these 3 comes first, you should move them to a permanent cage.

 

[Dan]

When the female is so small, do I have to worry about her not being able to find food as easily in such a large cage?

 

[Justin Carl]

females can be kept in a smaller cage. or you can cup feed with a large cage.

 

[Dan]

what were to happen if I kept them in the same cage together? They seem to get along fine with each other. I have been told that if you keep them together from when they are young, that they will get along fine there whole lives, except when the female is gravid.

 

[dodolah]

what were to happen if I kept them in the same cage together? They seem to get along fine with each other. I have been told that if you keep them together from when they are young, that they will get along fine there whole lives, except when the female is gravid.

I see 2 situations that will develop from caging chameleons together:

All starts when they stressed each other out.

Situation A:
constant stress = low immune system
low Immune system = sickness/ infection/ anorexia/ etc = death

Situation B:
constant stress = aggressive behavior
aggressive behavior = fight/ biting/ killing = death

It is possible, however, to cage 2 chameleons together.
but they require a ridiculously massive cage. I say 3 to 4 times bigger than your permanent cage size.
or a free roam enclosure that takes a whole room.

But, basically, panthers are solitary and that's that.
you can opt for pygmys. They seem to tolerate being caged together.

 

[kinyonga]

My main concern with keeping them together would be that as soon as the female is sexually mature they will mate...so even if the female is not full grown she will have to produce fertile eggs. You will be forcing her to use nutrients that she may need for growing her own body for eggs. It could cause her to have problems.

 

[Dan]

Are there certain signs I can look for that they are looking to "get down"? Since I am still a young college student, I am gonna have to save up for a little while untill I cna buy another cage and set of lights to keep thems seperate. So I am hoping I can keep them together as long as I can. What things in particular should I be looking for that are definite grounds that mean they need to be seperated?

 

[kinyonga]

There is some information on this site....
http://www.adcham.com/html/taxonomy/species/fpardalis.html

 

[Cameochams]

I own 8 panther chameleons. I would never recommend housing them together.
Like someone said in this thread, 3 months is typically the time that they start to become territorial. I would move the male in a cage larger then the one he already has. As for the female, She can stay in a normal size cage until she starts getting much older, 7-12 months would be ideal. Good luck with everything.

 

[PardalisGirl]

My thoughts......

I have some thoughts on this........The male Dan has is one of my Ambilobe males. Dan has sent me pictures of his female and the cage they are in. The male is still an appropriate size for the cage for now. I am the one that told Dan it will be OK to keep them together until the male starts to initiate any signs of hormones or breeding behavior. They are getting along fine and the female is eating well. I keep young juvies together in cages until they reach a certain size. Most breeders do. I still have the sibling males of Dan's male housed together in groups of three. They get along fine for now in a decent sized cage. I will separate them in another month or so.

When chams are young they are used to living with their siblings (male and female). They grow up used to that situation. This does not cause stress if the cage is large enough. Stress does no usually occur until hormones start to kick in. The cage Dan's pair is in now has plenty of room for the two to do as they please. I instructed Dan to separate the female when the male's hormones kick in and he becomes interested in her (he will start bobbing his head at her). I told him to keep her separate then until she was old enough to breed. It is going to be several months before this situation happens.

I told him to watch them carefully for any sign that the female was not happy or stressed out. As he stated, they are getting along fine right now. They sit next to each other. She is eating fine, sleeps comfortably near him and has good color. If the male invades her personal space, she lets him know by puffing up. She sets her boundaries and the male complies. This is a natural behavior, not a stressed one. Out in the wild, one would find this interaction going on regularly. One would find young juvie panthers on the same bush or shrub together. They would coexist together and there would be no territorial issue until the male's hormones kick in making them go after the females and drive away other males.

I know I may take some "heat" for my approach, but I do keep some of my Panthers as pairs in appropriate sized cages. It depends on the male. It works best when the male is raised in a sibling situation beyond the first few months. They are used to social interaction with others. I even have a couple of males that live with two females. The male leaves them alone unless they are receptive. I remove the females when they are gravid until a month after they lay. Then they go back with the male. I don't see signs of stress with these groups. The females eat, drink and sleep in comfort. I do heavily plant my cages so there is a lot of separation and cover. If I see that the pairing or grouping is not a happy situation I remove the females. Some males just don't have the personality for this. It's a matter of observation. I am home all day and spend a lot of time observing them.

Dan is a very observant and attentive keeper. He watches his pair very closely. I trust him when he says they get along fine right now. I trust him to notice when the male becomes attracted to the female. Until then, I personally think they can be kept together.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Catherine,


You won't take any heat from me!

I will say this however, one of the difficult elements of giving and receiving advice on a forum like this is that you have many keepers with varying degrees/levels of experience.
You have advanced husbandry techniques with experienced keepers that they want to share. We all benefit from these observations and experiments and as I've said 1000 times we are all continuing to learn about keeping these amazing animals.
You also have brand new keepers and potential keepers. These people are trying to learn how to successfully keep these animals and need a more "guaranteed" method for success....and so, there are some basic rules of husbandry that have so far proven to offer good guidelines for a beginning hobbyist.
In Dan's situation, he is working under the instruction of a breeder. He is in communication with this breeder (Catherine) and has been informed of what to look for and how to manage this arrangement.
This should not be perceived by the beginner as license or permission to keep multiple chams in the same enclosure.
It is, however, something that we should continue to talk about and share experiences of.

http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2003/july2003/cohabitation/cohabitation.html

-Brad

 

[PardalisGirl]

Thank you Brad

Thank you Brad! The situation you described is exactly right. Dan and I discussed this situation for a month before I actually sent my male to him. We were in constant communication after he put the two together. He watched them constantly and updated me daily as to what they were doing. We assessed their behavior daily to see if things were progressing in the right direction. And they did. I placed my Ambilobe male with Dan in the first place because I saw he was so observant and attentive. Their well being is a top priority. I felt comfortable with him keeping the two together in this fashion because of his personality and the communication we have had over the months.

I would never have suggested this to a person I did not know or feel this way about. Your point, Brad is an important one. Advise on this forum is given to apply to situations in general and to help new keepers headed in the right direction. I have not mentioned my keeping some Panthers as pairs or in groups in my postings, because it's not something I would want new keepers to try or to even think about. Dan and I discussed all of this in private messages as I felt he could succeed with it in his particular situation.

 

[kinyonga]

I will still say that as soon as the female is sexually mature they will mate. Unless Dan can watch them every minute and knows chameleon behaviour well enough to catch "that first little clue" that the female is receptive and the male is ready too, the end result is going to be a gravid female...at which point there will be little doubt that her behavior will be that of repelling the male...just my opinion.

 

[Dan]

Thanks everyone for the great advice. I think if I take little bits and pieces from all of your responses, I got a good idea of what to look for, and what to do. Like ParadlisGirl said, we have been monitoring hte situation very very closley, and it seems that she made sure to give me male that was very mellow, and nonagressive. I am watching them most of the day, everyday. I have yet to see any head bobbing from the male, and the female doesnt seem receptive yet. If he gets too close, she definitly lets him know that she needs her space.

I have been working on setting up the larger cage for them, so that as soon as they are ready they can be moved into it. But I think they still need a little more time.

I will make sure to keep you all updated on how they are doing together, and any behavioral changes that I notice.

Thanks again everyone, and hope you have a wonderful new year!

 

[PardalisGirl]

This is true.......

That is true Kinyonga.........However, I've already recommended to Dan that as soon as the male starts bobbing his head at the female and looking interested in her, that he remove her until she is old enough to breed. This will happen in a couple of months which will be well before she is receptive and willing to breed herself. Young virgin males usually "play act" for a period of time before they actually try to do anything serious. They bob their heads and flirt quite a bit before they are actually motivated to "do the deed" when they are virgins. It's a progression of hormone levels as they grow and mature. As the hormone levels build the behavior becomes more pronounced until aggressive breeding activity starts. This is also about the time you start to see small secretions left on branches, etc. by the males. The hormone thing again. It is all tied together. Once Dan sees this behavior starting he can safely remove the female until she is mature enough. When I have my juvie siblings in groups of three per cage, it is at this point that I split up the males. They all live together happily until this point. I let females live together in groups of three. I just move them into bigger cages as they grow.