Why do we use supplements?

[NashansCamos]

So the other day, I was thinking why do we use supplements? in the wild they don't get supplements.

Isn't the whole point of chameleon care to mimic the natural ways of the chameleon as much as possible?

Is it because they get all the vitamins from natural sunlight that don't occur in t5 bulbs?

Even so people with outdoor enclosures still supplement?

 

[ashdavisa]

Isn't the whole point of chameleon care to mimic the natural ways of the chameleon as much as possible?

Well, not really. We try to create an environment that allows them the longest, most comfortable life. I'm not familiar with the others, but at least with veileds, they typically only live a couple years in their natural habitat partly because it has rather harsh seasons. To mimic the wet/dry seasons they experience in the wild would not only be difficult, it would put unnecessary stress on the animal. So we go for something kind of in the middle, where they thrive.

As for vitamins- they have an unlimited source of potential food in the wild, naturally gutloaded. They survive because whatever they're able to eat provides enough of what they need. We feed chameleons bugs that aren't native to their wild habitat, so they aren't a perfect fit- maybe too much phosphorus, not enough calcium, less gutload per insect, etc. So we supplement!

As far as D3 goes, there's a reason it shouldn't be given every day. The UVB provided to them should be enough, but it will never entirely replicate the sun. An occasional dose of extra D3 is a safeguard against MBD, and is especially important if you don't measure your UVB levels.

Basically, we do what we do because it keeps them healthy and alive.

 

[jamest0o0]

Sunlight provides vitamin d3. There are many others. Natural isn't always better, there's a reason they live much longer in captivity.

It's a myth that their food is naturally gutloaded better. That is totally wrong. Our gutloads are far, far... superior than what they'd be eating in the wild. The thing is, we don't know how important gutload is. They may be eating foods that happen to have more calcium and vitamin A, if they're lucky(probably from eating small vertebrate prey for the larger species).

 

[jamest0o0]

Eating pollinators I'm sure helps out as well.

 

[NashansCamos]

Well, not really. We try to create an environment that allows them the longest, most comfortable life. I'm not familiar with the others, but at least with veileds, they typically only live a couple years in their natural habitat partly because it has rather harsh seasons. To mimic the wet/dry seasons they experience in the wild would not only be difficult, it would put unnecessary stress on the animal. So we go for something kind of in the middle, where they thrive.

As for vitamins- they have an unlimited source of potential food in the wild, naturally gutloaded. They survive because whatever they're able to eat provides enough of what they need. We feed chameleons bugs that aren't native to their wild habitat, so they aren't a perfect fit- maybe too much phosphorus, not enough calcium, less gutload per insect, etc. So we supplement!

As far as D3 goes, there's a reason it shouldn't be given every day. The UVB provided to them should be enough, but it will never entirely replicate the sun. An occasional dose of extra D3 is a safeguard against MBD, and is especially important if you don't measure your UVB levels.

Basically, we do what we do because it keeps them healthy and alive.

Yeah I supposed it could be variety of insects.

 

[ashdavisa]

It's a myth that their food is naturally gutloaded better. That is totally wrong. Our gutloads are far, far... superior than what they'd be eating in the wild. The thing is, we don't know how important gutload is. They may be eating foods that happen to have more calcium and vitamin A, if they're lucky(probably from eating small vertebrate prey for the larger species).

Yes- this is correct. My brain is still in wake-up mode so I maybe should've elaborated more in my post ?
But again, it is why we don't try to recreate their natural habitat. We can artificially provide better nutrition and living conditions than they'll ever experience in the wild (which is harsh and generally provides just enough to live into adulthood, reproduce, and skirt by until it stops being enough).

 

[NashansCamos]

Yes- this is correct. My brain is still in wake-up mode so I maybe should've elaborated more in my post ?
But again, it is why we don't try to recreate their natural habitat. We can artificially provide better nutrition and living conditions than they'll ever experience in the wild (which is harsh and generally provides just enough to live into adulthood, reproduce, and skirt by until it stops being enough).

Very true. we can provide them correct vitamins, they don't have to get exposed to harsh conditions, predators, or other chameleons.

And the food we give them is gutloaded.

 

[jamest0o0]

Yes- this is correct. My brain is still in wake-up mode so I maybe should've elaborated more in my post ?
But again, it is why we don't try to recreate their natural habitat. We can artificially provide better nutrition and living conditions than they'll ever experience in the wild (which is harsh and generally provides just enough to live into adulthood, reproduce, and skirt by until it stops being enough).

I get where you're coming from and agree. The variety of feeders and pollen they get probably helps. I was going to say the gutload thing regardless because it often gets brought up. I look at it as, whole foods would be selling it if there was some magical grass out there lol. Personally, I suspect they get a lot of help from eating the occasional lizard/bird/etc.

 

[NashansCamos]

I get where you're coming from and agree. The variety of feeders and pollen they get probably helps. I was going to say the gutload thing regardless because it often gets brought up. I look at it as, whole foods would be selling it if there was some magical grass out there lol. Personally, I suspect they get a lot of help from eating the occasional lizard/bird/etc.

I have seen some videos of chams eating small lizards before.

 

[jamest0o0]

Yup and they'd be loaded with calcium and vitamins. Particularly vitamin A retinol

 

[nightanole]

And the age old question, where do wild lizards get their calcium from? I mean calcium is natures insect repellent, so are they just coated in some natural calcium dust if the insects are not eating it?

 

[NashansCamos]

Yup and they'd be loaded with calcium and vitamins. Particularly vitamin A retinol

Not something I would try lol. If you live in florida you might be able to find and catch a small anole or something. the wild ones are probably loaded with parasites though

 

[jamest0o0]

Not something I would try lol. If you live in florida you might be able to find and catch a small anole or something. the wild ones are probably loaded with parasites though

Yeah TBH I was thinking of breeding mourning geckos to feed off occasional(they're very easy to breed and small), but I'd feel too bad. I feel bad enough feeding off roaches lol.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I'm not familiar with the others, but at least with veileds, they typically only live a couple years in their natural habitat partly because it has rather harsh seasons.

IDK about longevity in the wild, but we have an expert on veileds here who insists

It has been demonstrated that they can live up to 16 years under ideal conditions in the captivity, while the average in the US stays between 3 to 5 years (counting only animals that reach maturity
....
In Germany, it is a standard that on the strongly regulated and educated market they live normally 10 years and more.

CLIMATE OF THE NATURAL HABITAT OF THE MIGHTY YEMEN CHAMELEON
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do many of us (humans) take supplements? To make up for inadequate (poor) diets & dietary habits. With our pets, we rely on studies as to their dietary requirements, and do our best to provide for them, but we live in an imperfect world, and simulating those natural conditions can be challenging to say the least. Even animals in the wild have been found lacking in some cases (e.g. threatened habitats, natural disasters, others).

Nevertheless, it's in effort to make up for where we—as keepers/caretakers—might be lacking (i.e. "insurance"). ?

 

[ashdavisa]

IDK about longevity in the wild, but we have an expert on veileds here who insists

Right,

The lifecycle of the chameleons is strongly dependent on this type of weather so that:

they hatch in April

they grow up until reaching maturity in July, when

they mate and subsequently

they lay eggs in August.

Then, the dry season starts and in December almost all adult population becomes extinct due to the predation and exological pressure of the dry season.

I'm not sure if you were trying to enforce or debate my statement! Either way, I think everyone can agree that they live much, much longer when properly kept in captivity.

 

[nightanole]

Yeah TBH I was thinking of breeding mourning geckos to feed off occasional(they're very easy to breed and small), but I'd feel too bad. I feel bad enough feeding off roaches lol.

 

[NashansCamos]

View attachment 273947

lol...................

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Right,


I'm not sure if you were trying to enforce or debate my statement! Either way, I think everyone can agree that they live much, much longer when properly kept in captivity.

Imperfect memory. I thought he had said they live longer in the wild, but the post didn't bear that out. At that point i was trying to be positive that they can live considerably longer if/when kept properly.

I agree, many species lifespans have benefited from captivity, dogs & cats being prime examples.

 

[PetNcs]

I'm not familiar with the others, but at least with veileds, they typically only live a couple years in their natural habitat partly because it has rather harsh seasons. To mimic the wet/dry seasons they experience in the wild would not only be difficult, it would put unnecessary stress on the animal. So we go for something kind of in the middle, where they thrive.

well they do not life couple of yearsnin the wild, where dk you have this info from? I have never seen it published...

the dactnis they live
Mostky just 9 months...

To simullate the wintertime is essential fkr their thriving in calyivity

the approach “go for
Average” is a killer IMHO

 

[kinyonga]

@jamest0o0 said..."Personally, I suspect they get a lot of help from eating the occasional lizard/bird/etc."... What do the tiny chameleons like brevs eat to get the vitamins then?