Why is my veiled hatchling/juvenile on deaths door?

[Jaiden Jordan]

Not new to reptiles just getting back in the hobby but very new to chameleons. I’ll start with my supplies and enclosure.
Enclosure:36Lx20Wx36H all screen pvc bare bottom drilled holes for drainage bought clear polycarbonate roof panels to seal front bottom and other portions for humidity purpose. Cage stands on 38inch tall table with 3 inch pvc pipe on 4 corners to elevate off drainage mat. Cage tucked in corner of wall with maybe 3-5 inches of cage in the window(thick double glass window with screen have a background also so reflection and too much sun is out of the possibilities) a lot of vertical and horizontal bamboo branches along with yellow hibiscus braided tree,golden pothos, pink polka dot plant, and a fern not sure what kind.
Supplies: ZILLA 75watt incandescent bulb flukers 5 inch dome(9am-9pm), Zoo Med t5 HO 10.0 22” long placed diagonally across cage(9am-9pm),2 Zoo med foggers(one stays on max during the day both stay on from 9pm-8:50am), mist system with 2 nozzles locations(mist every 2 hours 2 mins each session 3 mins in morning and before bed), plastic water bottle with hole dripping on tree. Zoo med calcium w/o d3 only supplement I have(little guy ate 1 cricket and 1 dubia in the 12 days I had him so I couldn’t even start a schedule for this yet). 2 LED growing lights on bottom of cage. Toss a towel on the front of the cage to block out any extra lights at night.
Food: crickets, dubia roach, meal worms, super worms, wax worms (gut load all my insects and worms with strawberries blackberries kale bananas feed my juvenile beardy same food and he’s perfectly healthy so I’m not thinking it was the food).
Animal:
Veiled chameleon-Male-maybe 3 months size of my finger-ownership July 28th 2023(13 days!!!!) got him from LLLreptiles.com have no previous knowledge or history of him.
Now why I think he’s on his death bed. First day he ate one cricket and that was it figured he was anxious and stressed. 2nd day no food normal behavior. 3rd day one dubia nothing else more responsive to hydration time. Day 4-7 stayed in hiding no basking no drinking no eating no moving. Day 8 slept passed wake up time freaked out when mist hit him and stayed awake and moving after that drinking from leafs but no food, dry pure orange urate no poop at all with it(confused now since he only fancied water). Yesterday when I walked by I saw him with eyes shut rear legs and tail wrapped around branch waving arms around grabbing at nothing no extra body movement just front arms with head tilted up I assisted his front half with my finger to a secure branch stayed there doing the same thing. Few hours later he was on his side rear and front right side legs extended. Cut a part of the tree that he was laying and took him out started inspecting him. Eyes sunken, non responsive to flashlight and human touch, opens his mouth takes one big breath every couple of mins laying flat in my palm resting his head on my thumb . Set up a hospital tank he’s now staying at the bottom of the cage can’t hold himself up and most he’ll do is try to raise his head up whenever he goes for a breath and now when I pick him up he’s pretty much limp. Just keeping him hydrated warm and his privacy until he passes. Contacted LLL said my setup was too big (lol totally makes sense that a setup is “too big” for a wild animal) since it was passed their 3 day policy(what company that is confident in their product only has a 3 day policy!?!?) all they could do was offer me a lousy discount if I bought another animal from them. Answered none of my questions so I just want to make sure I did not do anything wrong in the 13 days I had him and are they at fault or is it normal for hatchlings to have medical complications in captive breeding? I will be getting another veiled so nitpick anything that I could’ve done wrong and leave suggestions to trusted websites or stores for veiled chams. Thanks

 

[Jaiden Jordan]

Not new to reptiles just getting back in the hobby but very new to chameleons. I’ll start with my supplies and enclosure.
Enclosure:36Lx20Wx36H all screen pvc bare bottom drilled holes for drainage bought clear polycarbonate roof panels to seal front bottom and other portions for humidity purpose. Cage stands on 38inch tall table with 3 inch pvc pipe on 4 corners to elevate off drainage mat. Cage tucked in corner of wall with maybe 3-5 inches of cage in the window(thick double glass window with screen have a background also so reflection and too much sun is out of the possibilities) a lot of vertical and horizontal bamboo branches along with yellow hibiscus braided tree,golden pothos, pink polka dot plant, and a fern not sure what kind.
Supplies: ZILLA 75watt incandescent bulb flukers 5 inch dome(9am-9pm), Zoo Med t5 HO 10.0 22” long placed diagonally across cage(9am-9pm),2 Zoo med foggers(one stays on max during the day both stay on from 9pm-8:50am), mist system with 2 nozzles locations(mist every 2 hours 2 mins each session 3 mins in morning and before bed), plastic water bottle with hole dripping on tree. Zoo med calcium w/o d3 only supplement I have(little guy ate 1 cricket and 1 dubia in the 12 days I had him so I couldn’t even start a schedule for this yet). 2 LED growing lights on bottom of cage. Toss a towel on the front of the cage to block out any extra lights at night.
Food: crickets, dubia roach, meal worms, super worms, wax worms (gut load all my insects and worms with strawberries blackberries kale bananas feed my juvenile beardy same food and he’s perfectly healthy so I’m not thinking it was the food).
Animal:
Veiled chameleon-Male-maybe 3 months size of my finger-ownership July 28th 2023(13 days!!!!) got him from LLLreptiles.com have no previous knowledge or history of him.
Now why I think he’s on his death bed. First day he ate one cricket and that was it figured he was anxious and stressed. 2nd day no food normal behavior. 3rd day one dubia nothing else more responsive to hydration time. Day 4-7 stayed in hiding no basking no drinking no eating no moving. Day 8 slept passed wake up time freaked out when mist hit him and stayed awake and moving after that drinking from leafs but no food, dry pure orange urate no poop at all with it(confused now since he only fancied water). Yesterday when I walked by I saw him with eyes shut rear legs and tail wrapped around branch waving arms around grabbing at nothing no extra body movement just front arms with head tilted up I assisted his front half with my finger to a secure branch stayed there doing the same thing. Few hours later he was on his side rear and front right side legs extended. Cut a part of the tree that he was laying and took him out started inspecting him. Eyes sunken, non responsive to flashlight and human touch, opens his mouth takes one big breath every couple of mins laying flat in my palm resting his head on my thumb . Set up a hospital tank he’s now staying at the bottom of the cage can’t hold himself up and most he’ll do is try to raise his head up whenever he goes for a breath and now when I pick him up he’s pretty much limp. Just keeping him hydrated warm and his privacy until he passes. Contacted LLL said my setup was too big (lol totally makes sense that a setup is “too big” for a wild animal) since it was passed their 3 day policy(what company that is confident in their product only has a 3 day policy!?!?) all they could do was offer me a lousy discount if I bought another animal from them. Answered none of my questions so I just want to make sure I did not do anything wrong in the 13 days I had him and are they at fault or is it normal for hatchlings to have medical complications in captive breeding? I will be getting another veiled so nitpick anything that I could’ve done wrong and leave suggestions to trusted websites or stores for veiled chams. Thanks

Temps 90 flat 3 inch above basking spot so I’m assuming high 80s on the branch itself, cool side of the cage fluctuates 70-75F depending on house temp and at night time the whole cage sits at 70-72.5F

 

[nightanole]

T5hO in 36 cage is waaaaaay too much uvb, but that takes a long time to manifest.
Babies dont get basking lights...

But it sounds like you have a URI.

No cage is too big. Infact that cage is too small for an adult make. The cage can be infinite if they can find food light and water.

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi and welcome. I’m so sorry that you’re chameleon and you are going through this terrible experience. I do see some things, but it sounds like it is too late for this poor little guy. First I want you to know that I’m not being mean or judge mental - just honest and to the point.
Generally baby chameleons are quite fragile and have zero resources if everything is perfect for them. Usually they shouldn’t be rehomed until at least 3-4 months, plus afaik, LLL doesn’t have the greatest track record for selling healthy animals or providing any decent after sale customer service.
Every one has their own opinion about enclosure size for babies. I’m of the school of thought that as long as they have a consistent place to find their food, all is fine. I am confused about the top of the enclosure though - is it screen or clear polycarbonate? Uvb won’t pass thru the majority of things.
The biggest and most concerning things I see are your humidity levels are probably wayyy too high. Veiled humidity during the day should be a rather dry 30-50%. @nightanole is more than likely correct and your little guy has a respiratory infection. One of the ways that I suggest for hydration and humidity is misting (not fogging) for at least 2 minutes twice a day - right before lights go on and off. Of course keeping accurate thermometer and hygrometers and checking to make sure they are in range and adjusting as needed is essential. For very young babies, temp should not go above 80. Due to risks of burns, lights are advised to be elevated a few inches above screen until cham is too large to walk upside down along the top. Proper ventilation is also key in maintaining a healthy chameleon. The wild veileds in south Florida are subject to very hot and humid conditions, but being outside with unlimited air flow is their saving grace.
Your uvb is too strong as well. We use a T5 outlet, but with either a 5.0 or 6% bulb. Then the distance between bun light and basking area should be 8-9”. I don’t think you’ve had him long enough for this to have had such an impact, but it may not have helped.
Now, it’s not all on you. I already mentioned LLL’s reputation and the problems with baby chameleons. Shipping and even just being moved to a new home is very stressful for them. It can take a couple of days for them to acclimate and they may not eat much or at all for 1-2 days. After that thought, baby veileds should be eating machines, scarfing down as much tiny bugs as they can in a 20 minute time, and depending on how young, twice a day. It’s essential that their offered feeders be small enough. If baby is very tiny, fruit flies, pinhead crickets and bean beetles may be needed. Anything larger than the space between the eyes is too big. I like to err on the side of caution and tend to feed my animals smaller feeders. If you were providing feeders of adequate size, baby should have been scarfing them down within a day or two.
You could try taking your little one to a good vet with experience with chameleons, but from other’s experiences that I’ve seen here, not only may baby be too tiny to treat but sounds like he is just too far gone. I hate having to say that there’s little to no hope, but ….. While your conditions with light and humidity are definitely a problem, there’s so many other factors that could also be in play here that we can’t even guess at.
I would definitely advise for you to do a very thorough cleaning and disinfecting of the entire enclosure and replacing all of the plants just in case little one had something contagious. I also strongly advise getting everything set up and stabilized before bringing an cham home. The most accurate and up to date site you’ll find is https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-basics/ Do make sure to check out the veiled specific standards as well as read through all of the modules. If you have any questions or anything, do please ask us. I for one would be more than happy to review your entire set up and make sure everything is just right before you get a new cham. Unfortunately there really aren’t any known and reputable dedicated breeders of veileds that are commonly known. Frams chams occasionally has been breeding veileds but they currently have none. I’m really not sure where most people get their veileds from. I got one of mine from what I can only assume was a local backyard breeder or possibly even wild caught (I’m in Florida), one from (ugh) Petco and another from a hobbyist breeder friend on the forum. I do advise steering clear of places like LLL for animals, anything with Backwater or Underground in the name and unfortunately Florida chams has also left many with bad experiences. I would suggest checking out any locally owned mom & pop pet stores and make sure to ask questions about where they get their veileds from and be wary of super young babies. Due to the lack of reputable breeders for veileds, I advise against having one shipped as the stress is too much. I know I talk a lot but I hope I’ve been of some help to you.

 

[Jaiden Jordan]

Hi and welcome. I’m so sorry that you’re chameleon and you are going through this terrible experience. I do see some things, but it sounds like it is too late for this poor little guy. First I want you to know that I’m not being mean or judge mental - just honest and to the point.
Generally baby chameleons are quite fragile and have zero resources if everything is perfect for them. Usually they shouldn’t be rehomed until at least 3-4 months, plus afaik, LLL doesn’t have the greatest track record for selling healthy animals or providing any decent after sale customer service.
Every one has their own opinion about enclosure size for babies. I’m of the school of thought that as long as they have a consistent place to find their food, all is fine. I am confused about the top of the enclosure though - is it screen or clear polycarbonate? Uvb won’t pass thru the majority of things.
The biggest and most concerning things I see are your humidity levels are probably wayyy too high. Veiled humidity during the day should be a rather dry 30-50%. @nightanole is more than likely correct and your little guy has a respiratory infection. One of the ways that I suggest for hydration and humidity is misting (not fogging) for at least 2 minutes twice a day - right before lights go on and off. Of course keeping accurate thermometer and hygrometers and checking to make sure they are in range and adjusting as needed is essential. For very young babies, temp should not go above 80. Due to risks of burns, lights are advised to be elevated a few inches above screen until cham is too large to walk upside down along the top. Proper ventilation is also key in maintaining a healthy chameleon. The wild veileds in south Florida are subject to very hot and humid conditions, but being outside with unlimited air flow is their saving grace.
Your uvb is too strong as well. We use a T5 outlet, but with either a 5.0 or 6% bulb. Then the distance between bun light and basking area should be 8-9”. I don’t think you’ve had him long enough for this to have had such an impact, but it may not have helped.
Now, it’s not all on you. I already mentioned LLL’s reputation and the problems with baby chameleons. Shipping and even just being moved to a new home is very stressful for them. It can take a couple of days for them to acclimate and they may not eat much or at all for 1-2 days. After that thought, baby veileds should be eating machines, scarfing down as much tiny bugs as they can in a 20 minute time, and depending on how young, twice a day. It’s essential that their offered feeders be small enough. If baby is very tiny, fruit flies, pinhead crickets and bean beetles may be needed. Anything larger than the space between the eyes is too big. I like to err on the side of caution and tend to feed my animals smaller feeders. If you were providing feeders of adequate size, baby should have been scarfing them down within a day or two.
You could try taking your little one to a good vet with experience with chameleons, but from other’s experiences that I’ve seen here, not only may baby be too tiny to treat but sounds like he is just too far gone. I hate having to say that there’s little to no hope, but ….. While your conditions with light and humidity are definitely a problem, there’s so many other factors that could also be in play here that we can’t even guess at.
I would definitely advise for you to do a very thorough cleaning and disinfecting of the entire enclosure and replacing all of the plants just in case little one had something contagious. I also strongly advise getting everything set up and stabilized before bringing an cham home. The most accurate and up to date site you’ll find is https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-basics/ Do make sure to check out the veiled specific standards as well as read through all of the modules. If you have any questions or anything, do please ask us. I for one would be more than happy to review your entire set up and make sure everything is just right before you get a new cham. Unfortunately there really aren’t any known and reputable dedicated breeders of veileds that are commonly known. Frams chams occasionally has been breeding veileds but they currently have none. I’m really not sure where most people get their veileds from. I got one of mine from what I can only assume was a local backyard breeder or possibly even wild caught (I’m in Florida), one from (ugh) Petco and another from a hobbyist breeder friend on the forum. I do advise steering clear of places like LLL for animals, anything with Backwater or Underground in the name and unfortunately Florida chams has also left many with bad experiences. I would suggest checking out any locally owned mom & pop pet stores and make sure to ask questions about where they get their veileds from and be wary of super young babies. Due to the lack of reputable breeders for veileds, I advise against having one shipped as the stress is too much. I know I talk a lot but I hope I’ve been of some help to you.

Thanks for the resources and answers. I got all my humidity,misting schedules and lighting strengths from the YouTube channel chameleon academy followed everything but now that I’m thinking about it the chameleon was a lot bigger in size and they said if top is screen go 10.0 since mesh absorbs and filters 40 percent of uvb so they claim.100 percent mesh screen cage I went to lowes and bought the clear poly roof panels to cut and install,top of the cage is still all screen. I will follow up with pictures.

 

[Jaiden Jordan]

 

[cadet21345]

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I personally don't fog with lights on cause that can cause respiratory issues.

 

[MzLaurie11]

also all fake plants need to go. Real plants help humidity levels and allow chams to drink off of leaves. The biggest problem is veileds eat plants and one bite of a fake leaf will cause impaction and possible death! Flukers has bend a branch vines which are great and inexpensive. Make sure you have a cham safe plant list available wgen gwtting plants. Also clean the leaves and replace top soil in case a pestiside was used. I prefer monstera plants aka swiss cheese. Very hardy and have heavy stalks that dont break when climbed on by the cham. I believe that sustainabilty, safe, and functional is more important then "the look"! But thats just me. Oh i got my veiled when he was four months old from markschameleons.com. he is always available for info and offers a guarantee. Dont remember if its 30 or 60 days but he is a fair guy and will go over ypur setup before hand to make sure the new home for his baby is up to par!

 

[Jaiden Jordan]

also all fake plants need to go. Real plants help humidity levels and allow chams to drink off of leaves. The biggest problem is veileds eat plants and one bite of a fake leaf will cause impaction and possible death! Flukers has bend a branch vines which are great and inexpensive. Make sure you have a cham safe plant list available wgen gwtting plants. Also clean the leaves and replace top soil in case a pestiside was used. I prefer monstera plants aka swiss cheese. Very hardy and have heavy stalks that dont break when climbed on by the cham. I believe that sustainabilty, safe, and functional is more important then "the look"! But thats just me. Oh i got my veiled when he was four months old from markschameleons.com. he is always available for info and offers a guarantee. Dont remember if its 30 or 60 days but he is a fair guy and will go over ypur setup before hand to make sure the new home for his baby is up to par!

I agree, that was my girlfriends touch I had already stressed to her about that and taken out a lot I will 100 percent take out all fake plants cause I actually did see him nip at it but did not eat it definitely could’ve when I was not around. So I will transplant everything with organic soil chicken compost I have,get a t5 5.0, should I use heat lamp just in the morning to get them going? No fogging with basking anymore. No one mentioned my gut loading and food variety(gut load: blackberries,kale,banana,strawberry insects:crickets,mealworms,super worms, dubia roach, wax worms) I will disinfect everything should I just use vinegar and tooth brush

 

[MzLaurie11]

Vinegar should work. I use chlorahexidine as it is safe for everything..cham, plants, you, etc.. I used to fill my tub half way a throw a cup of bleach in and stir it good then put things in. Everything in both my cages is so tied down now i use the chlor. Clean the outside of all pots and remove the bottom water catchers as stray live food likes to hide there cacoon and hatch. You should clean them every two weeks.

 

[Jaiden Jordan]

Vinegar should work. I use chlorahexidine as it is safe for everything..cham, plants, you, etc.. I used to fill my tub half way a throw a cup of bleach in and stir it good then put things in. Everything in both my cages is so tied down now i use the chlor. Clean the outside of all pots and remove the bottom water catchers as stray live food likes to hide there cacoon and hatch. You should clean them every two weeks.

Ok thank you. Also is that cage too small for an adult veiled? if I remember correctly the video I watched from chameleon academy said panthers and bigger chameleons need minimum 4ftx4ftx4ft but with veiled you can get away with 2x2x4 so i went 3x2x3 ft,from floor to top of cage is 6.25ft

 

[cadet21345]

I agree, that was my girlfriend's touch I had already stressed to her about that and taken out a lot I will 100 percent take out all fake plants cause I did see him nip at it but did not eat it definitely could’ve when I was not around. So I will transplant everything with organic soil chicken compost I have, and get a t5 5.0, should I use a heat lamp just in the morning to get them going? No fogging with basking anymore. No one mentioned my gut loading and food variety(gut load: blackberries, kale, banana, strawberry insects:crickets, mealworms, super worms, dubia roach, wax worms) I will disinfect everything should I just use vinegar and toothbrush

Add horn worms as treats for hydration same with super worms, crickets are a 2:1 ratio of phosphorus to calcium while dubias are a 1:2 ratio of phosphorus to calcium. Dubias are better than crickets and that's why. I'd say also get rid of mealworms. Wax worms I think if over eaten can make your chameleon obese. Also, don't feed bugs if it's bigger than your chameleon's eye length apart. Don't make your bugs a powdered donut, you want a light dust every feeding and it should be calcium without d3 "Zoo Med Reptile Calcium without Vitamin D3, 8-Ounce". You want to use multivitamins with d3 twice a month "Zoo Med Reptivite, with Vitamin D3, 16-Ounce". I don't have a baby so I don't know about basking but I do know for adults the basking temp should be 80-85 degrees but I just know that that's for adults I don't know if the same rules apply to babies. All basking lamps should be white. For gut loading here's a picture. I would personally do 1, collard greens. 2, alfalfa. 3, papaya. 4, bee pollen. If you are gonna add bee pollen to calcium be careful because too much bee pollen can cause edema issues so I'll o an 8:1 ratio of calcium to bee pollen. If you have a blender do the percentages then blend them up until it probably looks like baby food.

 

[cadet21345]

Add horn worms as treats for hydration same with super worms, crickets are a 2:1 ratio of phosphorus to calcium while dubias are a 1:2 ratio of phosphorus to calcium. Dubias are better than crickets and that's why. I'd say also get rid of mealworms. Wax worms I think if over eaten can make your chameleon obese. Also, don't feed bugs if it's bigger than your chameleon's eye length apart. Don't make your bugs a powdered donut, you want a light dust every feeding and it should be calcium without d3 "Zoo Med Reptile Calcium without Vitamin D3, 8-Ounce". You want to use multivitamins with d3 twice a month "Zoo Med Reptivite, with Vitamin D3, 16-Ounce". I don't have a baby so I don't know about basking but I do know for adults the basking temp should be 80-85 degrees but I just know that that's for adults I don't know if the same rules apply to babies. All basking lamps should be white. For gut loading here's a picture. I would personally do 1, collard greens. 2, alfalfa. 3, papaya. 4, bee pollen. If you are gonna add bee pollen to calcium be careful because too much bee pollen can cause edema issues so I'll o an 8:1 ratio of calcium to bee pollen. If you have a blender do the percentages then blend them up until it probably looks like baby food.

Try to make the gut loads fresh, and if you have enough in the bank try to make them organic.

 

[Jaiden Jordan]

Add horn worms as treats for hydration same with super worms, crickets are a 2:1 ratio of phosphorus to calcium while dubias are a 1:2 ratio of phosphorus to calcium. Dubias are better than crickets and that's why. I'd say also get rid of mealworms. Wax worms I think if over eaten can make your chameleon obese. Also, don't feed bugs if it's bigger than your chameleon's eye length apart. Don't make your bugs a powdered donut, you want a light dust every feeding and it should be calcium without d3 "Zoo Med Reptile Calcium without Vitamin D3, 8-Ounce". You want to use multivitamins with d3 twice a month "Zoo Med Reptivite, with Vitamin D3, 16-Ounce". I don't have a baby so I don't know about basking but I do know for adults the basking temp should be 80-85 degrees but I just know that that's for adults I don't know if the same rules apply to babies. All basking lamps should be white. For gut loading here's a picture. I would personally do 1, collard greens. 2, alfalfa. 3, papaya. 4, bee pollen. If you are gonna add bee pollen to calcium be careful because too much bee pollen can cause edema issues so I'll o an 8:1 ratio of calcium to bee pollen. If you have a blender do the percentages then blend them up until it probably looks like baby food.

This is yoshi the first day I got him (jul 28 on my gf and I 4 year anniversary) he passed about 2 hours ago turned black tale and legs went stiff turned very light green lips ghost white with mouth stuck open. Thanks for all the help if you all could stick around this thread for the next two days while I revise the tank for proper setup and let me know if it’s a go for it’s new veiled

 

[jannb]

I am very sorry for your loss. I would toss the plants and do a through cleaning with peroxide volume 40, mixed 50/50 with hot water. This kind of peroxide is the kind you do hair with. I buy mine at Sally’s Beauty Supply. Then let the cage sit in the sun a few hours after you clean it. That’s should kill anything that might be passed on to a new chameleon.

 

[elizaann2]

I am so sorry for your loss. We are all here for you.

Let us know what questions you have when prepping for your next cham.

 

[cadet21345]

This is yoshi the first day I got him (jul 28 on my gf and I 4 year anniversary) he passed about 2 hours ago turned black tale and legs went stiff turned very light green lips ghost white with mouth stuck open. Thanks for all the help if you all could stick around this thread for the next two days while I revise the tank for proper setup and let me know if it’s a go for it’s new veiled

I hope that chameleon has a good afterlife.

 

[Jaiden Jordan]

Once again thanks for everything going to do some digging around here I will be back tomorrow or Saturday with pictures of new setup. Everyone stay safe

 

[elizaann2]

Not sure if you are aware of this or not but this is what I use as a husbandry guide for my veiled.

https://chameleonacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Veiled-Care-Summary-2022C.pdf

 

[MissSkittles]

I’m so very sorry that your little one didn’t make it. Take your time to grieve. Get everything sanitized and cleaned up and when ready, we’re here to help you all we can.