wild veileds in florida

[Chamero]

Haha was just a joke to lesses then serious mood here.... it actually looks/sounds like it is "happening" and this is not working out for the native species. But i mean I keep hearing about wild pops of chams both here (Cali) and Florida. Also here in cali there is flock of about 20-30 wild parrots that live between Whittier and Hacienda. Dont know how long Cali's been able to support parrots, but I know they arent native. Seems like global climate changes are already in effect. And its is nice to see and hear parrots in the tree next door.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

If anyone needs to see what short-sighted plans involving non-native species can accomplish, just look it up.>>>>>>>>

I was referring to the chestnut blight - the dominant tree (and major part of the ecosystem ) for the Eastern USA was 100% destroyed in a matter of decades. This was a result of bringing in a Japanese Chestnut into the US - they didn't even plant them in the wild, the spores of the blight just spread with the wind.

 

[SoCaliSon]

If anyone needs to see what short-sighted plans involving non-native species can accomplish, just look it up.>>>>>>>>

I was referring to the chestnut blight - the dominant tree (and major part of the ecosystem ) for the Eastern USA was 100% destroyed in a matter of decades. This was a result of bringing in a Japanese Chestnut into the US - they didn't even plant them in the wild, the spores of the blight just spread with the wind.

Ahhhh... I see... I misunderstood... Thanks again Eric, very interesting discussion. I agree...

~Joe

 

[Eric Adrignola]

No, that has nothing to do with any change in climate - the climate just happens to be suitable for the chameleons. Southern Cal is agreeable to almost anything, Florida, even more so.

Most invasives take over because they have no natural predators/competition.

I think, in Flordia, the veileds will fill a nich similar to birds - eating large insects and small reptiles. Birds wille at the young veileds, but the adults will have few predators. That's when it can get interesting...

Seriously, if left "alone", invasive species in Florida will become huge - Veileds will become much larger in a few decades over there - no competition for carnivorous tree lizard.

 

[Ultrakd]

If I were to sell some of the Veilds that I catch, which would be better to catch, Adults, Juvies or babies? How would you ship an adult?

 

[raptorslovepuns]

Most invasives take over because they have no natural predators/competition.

You forgot disease and parasites .

I think, in Flordia, the veileds will fill a nich similar to birds - eating large insects and small reptiles. Birds wille at the young veileds, but the adults will have few predators. That's when it can get interesting...

Seriously, if left "alone", invasive species in Florida will become huge - Veileds will become much larger in a few decades over there - no competition for carnivorous tree lizard.

Hopefully hawks and such will be able to control some of the chameleons, but honestly I think you're right, Florida is going to be the "Don't be a bad herp keeper" state. It's sad that people who practice our hobby poorly have wreaked so much havoc.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Like I said - this started long before herpers. Animals travel with people - they hitch rides on boats, etc. The thing about Florida, though, is that everything lives. Any creature or plant that can reach the place has a great chance of surviving.

When people started importing animals in the latter half of the 20th century, it got worse.

A friend of mine was involved in the herp industry back in the 70's (he worked for a major Zoo, and knew dealers and importers.). When a reptile was not worth selling (price became so low due to market saturation, they cost money to keep), they were released in the everglades. When the price came back up, they knew where to find the populations. Seemed innocent enough back then, I guess. People were not evil, just massively ignorant.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Seemed innocent enough back then, I guess. People were not evil, just massively ignorant.

LOL...Oh man that is perfect...Well said.

 

[KevinA]

Haha was just a joke to lesses then serious mood here.... it actually looks/sounds like it is "happening" and this is not working out for the native species. But i mean I keep hearing about wild pops of chams both here (Cali) and Florida. Also here in cali there is flock of about 20-30 wild parrots that live between Whittier and Hacienda. Dont know how long Cali's been able to support parrots, but I know they arent native. Seems like global climate changes are already in effect. And its is nice to see and hear parrots in the tree next door.

The parrots in LA have been around since about the 60's

They sure do make a lot of noise when they fly over head in the evening, but I like em.

 

[Amateur]

No disrespect intended in any way FE...but I am actually not to surprised that they are surviving down there. I am by no means an expert on animal populations and locations. But from the amount of research I have done I would not be surprised if there were as many, if not more possible predators to Chams in their natural habitats in Africa and Madagascar than in southern Florida. An animal that produces such large clutches of young in reproduction, is one that is equipped take losses, and still survive hostile environments.

As a cham keeper and "enthusiast" i guess you could say, I also found it intriguing to learn that they can and sometimes do survive in our local areas as wild populations. You can probably find a thread on here somewhere from a while back of me all excited about wild jax. I have since done more research into these kinds of cases.

For the sake of the local ecosystem and for the sake of our hobby... We should never purposely release our animals. As has been stated above... Introducing foreign species into an environment has and still is proving to be a bad idea. IMHO I really think that these populations should be gotten under control as soon as possible in some way... Before we start having threads on here about how the wildlife agencies are killing Florida Veileds, and banning trade and ownership. This is more than a possibility in cases like this... we should try to nip it in the butt.

We need to identify the locations they are inhabiting, and some may not agree... But I believe we should start removing as many as possible from the wild and try placing them in homes with the intent f at some point getting them all. It may not be possible to remove the entire wild breeding population and future generations right away, but if it was done consistently enough for a span of time.. I believe we may be able to fix "our bad" in the most humane way possible. Maybe I am a disgusting optimist, but I think it is worth a shot. If someone were able to start capturing some.. I would be willing to help in any way possible from the west coast as far as finding good homes for them to go to or whatever else.

Man! there is no body here to shut me up when I'm alone typing...sorry


~Joe

This is quite old, but I just find the whole thing so very incredibly ridiculous and hypocritical. If you sell chameleons, chameleons lay eggs or give birth to live young, they will reproduce, and eventually, they will find their way into the wild, be it by accident or because their owners intentionally set them free so that they can reproduce more freely.

There is no grey line to this argument, if you are genuinely concerned about the introduction of a non-native species into the ecosystem, then you should not own any chameleons; and if you own one chameleon or more chameleons, then you really have no say in the matter, as far as I'm concerned.

People who buy chameleons are a minority, if one of you guys releases 30 chameleons into the wild, and then five years later you have a population of chameleons on the loose: what can you actually do about it without the assistance of an organization that you cannot afford? It is beyond obvious, that a minority of chameleons owners, cannot possibly stop nor even come close to reducing, the reproduction of a lizard.

The fact that chameleons are climbers and are difficult to spot when there's plenty of trees around, makes it all the more impossible. And the fact that a minority of people are responsible for these chameleon populations, means that nobody will pay you to go out to regulate and reduce and study the growth of these chameleon populations; the government doesn't even have enough money to actually regulate the big corporations, the threat of a chameleon population is out of the question and no big organization will invest any money on something that will cost much more than it produces. Of course, ideally, if corruption didn't existed, it could be done, but under the circumstances, it's out of the question, and in my opinion, it comes off as a condescending and ignorant notion.

Bottom line: it's a fact of life, you give human beings the right of owning a non-native animal, and at the very least one of those humans, will breed the non-native animal, and the non-native animal will eventually find its way into the wild. It's a fact of life, it's the same reason why the concept of government regulations that we have does not work in the long term, because nobody is watching them, and nobody is watching what a chameleon owner does with his property, as simple as that; if you are a chameleon owner, and you suspected that a chameleon could survive in Florida or California, you knew this would happen, why act surprised about it?

If people are genuinely concerned about the ecosystem, then reinventing the housing system, reducing the pollution that cars produce, more regulations on the corporations that throw toxic waste on rivers, is much more positive than going out and "catching" as many wild chameleons as you can catch.

The human species has killed more life than any other animal on this planet, talking about "non-native" chameleons in a land where "native" Americans are rarely seen because they were ruthlessly disposed of their land and then systematically killed off, is extremely hypocritical and condescending.

Chameleons might grow up to become a little problem, but we have global warming, we have farms throwing toxic in the water, we have much bigger problems than a "chameleon invasion". In my not so humble opinion, I think that any person that claims that,

Cool to know? How is the introduction of non-native species that can potentially and negatively affect local ecosystems be cool?

Unbelievable.

Needs a slap in the face, or better said, a reality check. The US Government steals our money in plain sight, and we can't do anything about it because we cannot afford a good lawyer; what makes you think that you can actually stop or even minimize the reproduction of a lizard?

At a time when we have global warming, at a time where most of the meat that we eat is filled with antibiotics and drugs, at a time when rivers are filled with toxic, you are worried about some chameleons killing off native lizards?

Unbelievable.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that we have human beings wasting their time with the great dangers of a "chameleon invasion", is a much bigger threat to native species than chameleons are, and indeed a much bigger threat to the planet itself.

I welcome this potential chameleon pest, it's a massive improvement on the many non-native introductions we've had in the past, it's inevitable, and it is a very interesting animal, I see little or nothing to complain about: life isn't perfect, some species survive and some become extinct, that's life, there's nothing you can do about it, and at the end of the day, we -human beings- do not even know if we are indeed 100% native or if we are the result of a non-native mutation.....

 

[Amateur]

For the record,

If at any point in the future environmentalists notice even one native species of plant, or insect that is being threatened by the presence of these wild chams... We will then have to start the battle of limitation that they will try to put on our hobby, as far as trade and import.

You cannot do anything to stop it, and in the case that limitations are set in the future, the larger the local population of non-native chameleons, the more probable you will find illegal breeding: can't stop it.

I will express again how serious I think there presence might be. Look at the reaction to large snakes present in the everglades, A predator that will feed striclty on small mammals and the occasional bird. While Veileds seem like smaller harmless reptiles in comparison... If you really look at it Veileds, reproduce as fast if not faster, and in bigger numbers than snakes, and are a predator that will not only prey on small animals, but Insects, plants, birds, and indiscrimately. Are there any other aboreal predators in Florida that would potentially prey on these Chams?( I ask becuase none come to mind).

If the chameleon eats everything and intentionally tries to vary the meals, then it is less of a threat than an animal who eats a specific type of food? Or am I missing the point? A lot of animals will become extinct because chameleons eat all sorts of animals? I would think birds would be a natural predator that the chameleon would need to hide from, but the way you go on about it, apparently chameleons are an imminent threat to the very essence of the ecosystem. Seriously though, it might become something of a small problem, but my point is, trying to fix the problem would cost more than it would produce, not only economically, but also environmentally I believe it would be detrimental to invest considerable resources on controlling a potential "chameleon pest" when you have much bigger problems that require absolutely everything we have to give.

No finger pointing intended... and I am not against the sale of WC Chams...but I was afraid that what Travis stated was true... It sounds like breeders may be taking advantage of that climate to allow laborless breeding of Veileds. Works out great for them... Close supply of in demand Chams you are able to pick off the leaves once a year and sell as long as you can leave enough for the next harvest. I would not be suprised that if breeders stopped finding them they would realease more to keep that convenience at hand. I wonder if this is where the wild pops came from in the first place. Talk about short sighted... Risking the health of our ecosystem to make a few quick and easy bucks. We have done it so many times in the past, and everytime it comes back to bite us, yet we never learn our lesson.

I find that statement extremely hypocritical and judgmental, why pay others when you can make more money via local "laborless" (really? laborless?) breeding? Why take the risk of selling the chameleon to some random person, and that the random person lives in Florida, and that the random person finds out that "laborless breeding" is possible in the Florida climate, and that the random person will end up selling chameleons at a much cheaper cost and price, if I was one of the pet shops that started selling chameleons in the US and I lived in Florida, explain to me, would it be wrong for me to experiment on how a chameleon manages to survive in the Florida climate, and if I find that chameleons can survive in the Florida climate, why should I not take advantage of that when I know that one of my customers could do the same?

How do I know that you would have not done the very same thing had you had the opportunity to do so? I don't know, what I do know, is that when you sell exotic pets, this is bound to happen if the climate makes it possible, and once it happens, if the animal can reproduce as quickly as a chameleon and can hide as effectively as a chameleon, it is impossible to stop the growth if growth is indeed a reality; deal with it, worst things are happening as we speak.

For the record, I do not make money out of animals, but I can certainly see why people would breed chameleons via "laborless" breeding, it was bound to happen if the conditions allowed it to happen, and I actually welcome the growth of such an interesting animal, we've seen much worst introductions.

 

[djfishygillz]

This is quite old, but I just find the whole thing so very incredibly ridiculous and hypocritical. If you sell chameleons, chameleons lay eggs or give birth to live young, they will reproduce, and eventually, they will find their way into the wild, be it by accident or because their owners intentionally set them free so that they can reproduce more freely.

There is no grey line to this argument, if you are genuinely concerned about the introduction of a non-native species into the ecosystem, then you should not own any chameleons; and if you own one chameleon or more chameleons, then you really have no say in the matter, as far as I'm concerned.

People who buy chameleons are a minority, if one of you guys releases 30 chameleons into the wild, and then five years later you have a population of chameleons on the loose: what can you actually do about it without the assistance of an organization that you cannot afford? It is beyond obvious, that a minority of chameleons owners, cannot possibly stop nor even come close to reducing, the reproduction of a lizard.

The fact that chameleons are climbers and are difficult to spot when there's plenty of trees around, makes it all the more impossible. And the fact that a minority of people are responsible for these chameleon populations, means that nobody will pay you to go out to regulate and reduce and study the growth of these chameleon populations; the government doesn't even have enough money to actually regulate the big corporations, the threat of a chameleon population is out of the question and no big organization will invest any money on something that will cost much more than it produces. Of course, ideally, if corruption didn't existed, it could be done, but under the circumstances, it's out of the question, and in my opinion, it comes off as a condescending and ignorant notion.

Bottom line: it's a fact of life, you give human beings the right of owning a non-native animal, and at the very least one of those humans, will breed the non-native animal, and the non-native animal will eventually find its way into the wild. It's a fact of life, it's the same reason why the concept of government regulations that we have does not work in the long term, because nobody is watching them, and nobody is watching what a chameleon owner does with his property, as simple as that; if you are a chameleon owner, and you suspected that a chameleon could survive in Florida or California, you knew this would happen, why act surprised about it?

If people are genuinely concerned about the ecosystem, then reinventing the housing system, reducing the pollution that cars produce, more regulations on the corporations that throw toxic waste on rivers, is much more positive than going out and "catching" as many wild chameleons as you can catch.

The human species has killed more life than any other animal on this planet, talking about "non-native" chameleons in a land where "native" Americans are rarely seen because they were ruthlessly disposed of their land and then systematically killed off, is extremely hypocritical and condescending.

Chameleons might grow up to become a little problem, but we have global warming, we have farms throwing toxic in the water, we have much bigger problems than a "chameleon invasion". In my not so humble opinion, I think that any person that claims that,



Needs a slap in the face, or better said, a reality check. The US Government steals our money in plain sight, and we can't do anything about it because we cannot afford a good lawyer; what makes you think that you can actually stop or even minimize the reproduction of a lizard?

At a time when we have global warming, at a time where most of the meat that we eat is filled with antibiotics and drugs, at a time when rivers are filled with toxic, you are worried about some chameleons killing off native lizards?

Unbelievable.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that we have human beings wasting their time with the great dangers of a "chameleon invasion", is a much bigger threat to native species than chameleons are, and indeed a much bigger threat to the planet itself.

I welcome this potential chameleon pest, it's a massive improvement on the many non-native introductions we've had in the past, it's inevitable, and it is a very interesting animal, I see little or nothing to complain about: life isn't perfect, some species survive and some become extinct, that's life, there's nothing you can do about it, and at the end of the day, we -human beings- do not even know if we are indeed 100% native or if we are the result of a non-native mutation.....

Relax and welcome to the forum

 

[mrlloyd]

I know i'm resurrecting the dead here, but i have no problem with chameleons being in the wild in Florida. if you have lived here or even been here for that matter, you know Florida has more bugs then we know what to do with. I'm all for getting rid of some of these critters down here.

I don't see veiled's eating any small dogs, cats or livestock. I bet they actually get eaten a lot by the huge birds of prey or our indigenous snakes. And if they are hanging out down by the lakes and are close enough to the water then i guarantee they will be gator or bass food.

Sure its never good to have non native species introduced into a non native area but its gonna keep happening as long as people are dumb enough to release there store bought pets into the wild. On another note, I dont EVER see chameleons being as bad as the iguanas in south florida.

 

[smwboxer]

Have any of you actually been to southern Florida? The area is over-run with non-native species, reptiles/birds/insects/plants…… It's pretty much a lost cause as far as keeping these in check.