Will the Cham eat a small lizard?

[Lizardlover]

THERE IS ABSULETLY NOTHING WRONG WITH FEEDING UR SMALL JACKSON A SMALL LIZARD..IT FITS THEIR PREDITORIAL INSTINCTS AND AS LONG AS THE LIZARD IS NOT AS BIG AS THE CHAM THERE WILL BE NOTHING WRONG WHEN THE DIGESTION PROCESS TAKES PLACE. ALSO IF IT IS WC LIKE YOU SAID THERE WAS SOME IN YOUR BACKYARD,,IT IS NORMAL TO SEE THEM RUNNING IN PAIRS AND SINCE THERE SMALL IT IS UNCOMMON FOR THEM TO BE PARASITICAL. I HAVE PERSONALLY FED MY JACKSON WICH IS ABOUT 7 MONTHS OLD SMALL LIZARDS AND I COUGHT THEM IN MY BACKYARD I ONLY FED ONE THOUGH AND GAVE THE OTHER TO MY FRIEND THT HAS A BEARDED DRAGON.WC LIZARDS HAVE PROTEIN AND VITAMINS THT WILL NOT BE FOUND IN CAPTIVE CARE LIZARDS SO IT IS BENIFICIAL FOR UR CHAM. if ur cham is sick or not in a healthy condition ..it would be best not to feed it lizards.
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k582/lecham/DSC01579.jpg
hes eating a baby lizard about 3 inches long

First of all, please turn off your caps lock key, there is no need to "yell" at everyone on this forum. Second of all, chameleons are not built to consume animal protein as a regular part of their diet (bones, skin, etc.). While chameleons are predators not all species are the same. Veileds are much more inclined to eat small birds, or lizards, etc. due to their size, and gut contents of wild veiled chameleons have shown this (again, not as a regular part of their diet), but Jackson's should not be fed any type of vertebrate protein. In the wild have not been known to consume any type of vertebrate. Please check your info before posting because you are making no sense and it sounds like you just pulled this info out of thin air. People reading these posts will be misinformed when reading such inaccurate information.

 

[ChameleonsInMyHouse]

^ thanks for answering that dude back for me.

and to the rest of you who assumed i just read the title without the post, or who thought i was rude. go have a cigarette and relax. i did read everything the OP had to say. but when questions are asked that is a common question that members are just oblivious or too lazy to do a search on, my answer to them all is the same.

research my other posts regarding feeding vertabrates to your chameleon. as long as im on a technique or ive found out more and better reasons as to why or why not, my suggestions and opinions dont change. it was a point i was addressing to the OP and the rest of who comes on this thread, to know my opinion above and beyond what the OP just asks.


sad to say but its BULL like this that i left for a long time in the first place. loosen your tights forum and dont assume tone from text, if i bother you in someway, PM me. dont start public nonsence over it

 

[lecham]

first of all, please turn off your caps lock key, there is no need to "yell" at everyone on this forum. Second of all, chameleons are not built to consume animal protein as a regular part of their diet (bones, skin, etc.). While chameleons are predators not all species are the same. Veileds are much more inclined to eat small birds, or lizards, etc. Due to their size, and gut contents of wild veiled chameleons have shown this (again, not as a regular part of their diet), but jackson's should not be fed any type of vertebrate protein. In the wild have not been known to consume any type of vertebrate. Please check your info before posting because you are making no sense and it sounds like you just pulled this info out of thin air. People reading these posts will be misinformed when reading such inaccurate information.

hahaha who is yelling.. First of all:im sorry if thts how your brain reacts to caps but im not yelling..i can write how ever i desire..its america. And well second of all we they are talking about jacksons and i have dne my research..there is absoulutly nothing wrong with a jackson eating a small lizard..and as far as inacurate information goes people reading this forum is all about making your own choice..ir ur going to tell me everybody raises chams the same way ur in for a big surprise buddy. I have known of jacksons eating lizards and i know it is not common in the wild, like u mentioned but they do eat lizards being in the wild or not.third of all i have living healthy adult proof of jacksons tht have been fed lizards since there small and there is nothing wrong with it( being a very occasional event.) ESPECIALLY IF KEPT IN QUARENTINE AND GUT LOADED.

 

[Lizardlover]

hahaha who is yelling.. First of all:im sorry if thts how your brain reacts to caps but im not yelling..i can write how ever i desire..its america. And well second of all we they are talking about jacksons and i have dne my research..there is absoulutly nothing wrong with a jackson eating a small lizard..and as far as inacurate information goes people reading this forum is all about making your own choice..ir ur going to tell me everybody raises chams the same way ur in for a big surprise buddy. I have known of jacksons eating lizards and i know it is not common in the wild, like u mentioned but they do eat lizards being in the wild or not.third of all i have living healthy adult proof of jacksons tht have been fed lizards since there small and there is nothing wrong with it( being a very occasional event.)

Although I can barely understand your post, what proof do you have that states Jacksonii eat lizards in the wild? I didn't ask if you fed them to you jackson's, we already know you do. I never said that everyone should have the same husbandry as myself, I am just stating the facts, jackson's chameleons are not suited for eating vertebrate prey and gut contents of wild jackson's show this.

 

[lecham]

^ thanks for answering that dude back for me.

and to the rest of you who assumed i just read the title without the post, or who thought i was rude. go have a cigarette and relax. i did read everything the OP had to say. but when questions are asked that is a common question that members are just oblivious or too lazy to do a search on, my answer to them all is the same.

research my other posts regarding feeding vertabrates to your chameleon. as long as im on a technique or ive found out more and better reasons as to why or why not, my suggestions and opinions dont change. it was a point i was addressing to the OP and the rest of who comes on this thread, to know my opinion above and beyond what the OP just asks.


sad to say but its BULL like this that i left for a long time in the first place. loosen your tights forum and dont assume tone from text, if i bother you in someway, PM me. dont start public nonsence over it

OPINIONS AND SUGGESTIONS IS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT ASIDE FROM THE GIVEN FACTS. AND THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING THE "TONE" DEAL COULDNT HAVE SAID IT BETTER MY SELF."" dont assume tone from text, if i bother you in someway, PM me. dont start public nonsence over it"

 

[lecham]

although i can barely understand your post, what proof do you have that states jacksonii eat lizards in the wild? I didn't ask if you fed them to you jackson's, we already know you do. I never said that everyone should have the same husbandry as myself, i am just stating the facts, jackson's chameleons are not suited for eating vertebrate prey and gut contents of wild jackson's show this.

well i would tell walter my(wc) chameleon to come on and text to you that he loves lizards but hes unable to.. I know that they are not accustumed to eat lizards but an occasional lizard will not effect there health. Being there facts or not to back this up ..i say this from my own experience of having healthy jacksons with regular vet chek ups and all there gut contents are fine like i mentioned before feeding lizards to them is not a regular thing not evena monthly thing..think of it as a treat.(NOT PART OF THEIR REGULAR DIET)

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Lecham - you have absolutely no facts or scientific data to back up your claims, only your personal opinions based on a very narrow sighted "study" involving your very few chameleons with no reference levels of blood values to compare to. What if your chameleon comes down with gout in the next year? You have nothing to prove that your suggestions are healthy in any way other than it hasn't killed your chameleon yet. That is not at all what science is about. If it was you'd be rubbing dandelion leaves on your arms to prevent malaria because it seemed to work for one guy who then started shouting this information to everyone like a fact.

Scientific studies documenting the stomach contents of wild chameleons in their native environment show little to no animal matter that pales in comparison to the amount of plant and insect matter that comprise their regular diet. As insectivores they are not adapted to large amounts of animal proteins in the diet as animal and plant proteins are broken down differently. Animal proteins in excess overwhelm the kidneys of herbivores and insectivores and can lead to renal disease/failure and the buildup of uric acid as a condition known as gout. Neither outcome has a good prognosis in reptiles.

Will a chameleon eat a small vertebrate? Sure, the same as you will eat a dozen cheeseburgers from McDonalds in a few days. Does that make it healthy for you just because you can do it? But you didn't die from it so it must be good right? Surely you know otherwise. The difference between what they do in an altered captive environment and a natural realm of a forest is vast - remember that you are not recreating a natural setting with the same situations at all.

Opinons and suggestions are only valid with the support of facts, not as replacements. I invite you to learn more about this subject with actual books and scientific studies before you proclaim success and promote its use without knowing any of the potential consequences since your chameleon is not even fully grown and you aren't monitoring any of the variables that could be affected by it.

 

[ChameleonsInMyHouse]

even if jacksons were capable and do eat small lizards (which i do not doubt they do, but am not certain) than that is in the wild. as said before. chameleons have EVERYTHING nature can offer them to properly metabolize the high fat and protein content. In captivity they dont have anywhere near that.

has your research informed you the risks of hyper-vitaminosis. has your research told you about the dangers if a chameleon builds up to much prEformed vitamin-A?

im sayin you are probably right as to jacksons OCCASIONALLY eating them in the wild, but you shouldnt in captivity. by all means, if you are confident in your answer, start feeding feeder anoles to him. if he is interested he'll eat them. tell us what happens.

 

[Shenzi Sixaxis]

@shenzi, it was a joke, not really rude. If you thought it rude, then you have a very, very sensitive personallity.

No, actually, I'm just not for people being rude for no reason. If that was a joke, it was made in very poor taste and with a lack of consideration.

 

[lecham]

Lecham - you have absolutely no facts or scientific data to back up your claims, only your personal opinions based on a very narrow sighted "study" involving your very few chameleons with no reference levels of blood values to compare to. What if your chameleon comes down with gout in the next year? You have nothing to prove that your suggestions are healthy in any way other than it hasn't killed your chameleon yet. That is not at all what science is about. If it was you'd be rubbing dandelion leaves on your arms to prevent malaria because it seemed to work for one guy who then started shouting this information to everyone like a fact.

Scientific studies documenting the stomach contents of wild chameleons in their native environment show little to no animal matter that pales in comparison to the amount of plant and insect matter that comprise their regular diet. As insectivores they are not adapted to large amounts of animal proteins in the diet as animal and plant proteins are broken down differently. Animal proteins in excess overwhelm the kidneys of herbivores and insectivores and can lead to renal disease/failure and the buildup of uric acid as a condition known as gout. Neither outcome has a good prognosis in reptiles.

Will a chameleon eat a small vertebrate? Sure, the same as you will eat a dozen cheeseburgers from McDonalds in a few days. Does that make it healthy for you just because you can do it? But you didn't die from it so it must be good right? Surely you know otherwise. The difference between what they do in an altered captive environment and a natural realm of a forest is vast - remember that you are not recreating a natural setting with the same situations at all.

Opinons and suggestions are only valid with the support of facts, not as replacements. I invite you to learn more about this subject with actual books and scientific studies before you proclaim success and promote its use without knowing any of the potential consequences since your chameleon is not even fully grown and you aren't monitoring any of the variables that could be affected by it.

Ok scientists i know for a fact that not evrybody on this site is an expert on this subject..And i do have full grown jacksons if u would take the time to read what i stated and not to come up with your own conclusions...I will go through my docs and find an article tht i have on this matter. Ill pm u actually so this doesnt continue publically.(wc chams eating lizards even their own ) and i will gladly share and really a dozen cheeseburgers...I wouldnt even go there buddy..Im not feeding my cham a dozen anything..And as far as others taking my advice i think that thts what the forums is all about not tkaing or taking advice but for themost part it is about personall experience.. And well quatong u "they are not adapted to large amounts of animal proteins in the diet as animal and plant proteins are broken down differently. Animal proteins in excess overwhelm the kidneys of herbivores and insectivores and can lead to renal disease/failure and the buildup of uric acid as a condition known as gout." i never said to feed large amounts of animal proteins or of anything..U are just stating it. I know there is differnce between animal prot. And plant prot. And like u said :"large amounts" i stand by my choice and i know tht u guys think im like a 24/7 lizard feeder but tht is not the case.. I have fed about 3 bby lizards to my full adult cham in total.I dont think tht is excess..Or is it?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

The comparison was that a dozen cheeseburgers is excess for you, whereas a few vertebrates is probably excess for them. I thought it was a given that it was a metaphor, not literal. I'm done arguing with you, the self-proclaimed scientist who dismisses all others, since you have no merit in your defense and type like a 12 year old. I'd love to see your "papers on the matter". Do share.

 

[Ace]

"to eat or not to eat, that is the question"

 

[lecham]

even if jacksons were capable and do eat small lizards (which i do not doubt they do, but am not certain) than that is in the wild. as said before. chameleons have EVERYTHING nature can offer them to properly metabolize the high fat and protein content. In captivity they dont have anywhere near that.

has your research informed you the risks of hyper-vitaminosis. has your research told you about the dangers if a chameleon builds up to much prEformed vitamin-A?

im sayin you are probably right as to jacksons OCCASIONALLY eating them in the wild, but you shouldnt in captivity. by all means, if you are confident in your answer, start feeding feeder anoles to him. if he is interested he'll eat them. tell us what happens.

yes thank your for thi insight on vitamin build up but i know what can couse this and of course i am keeping a menu schedule..and no i will not start feeding annoles. i do not buy nor have i ever bought feeder lizards. there is plnety in my backyard to choose from ranging in all sizes i evn found out were they live..tht doesnt mean i feed mi cham a lizard evry month..i know what can happen and thanx for the concern..i am honestly not trying to misonform any body i am just stating personal experience.. i have fed my adult jackson 3 bby wc lizards in total and tht is it. i am not feedong "too much" of anything.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Then state it as your opinion and not "facts of life" so people know that it may be nothing more than your opinion. Stating it like it's a well known truth is how misinformation is perpetuated. Like the people who had chams in 10 gallon tanks with no UVB that told everyone how well it worked...until their cham died a few months later, but after everyone thought it worked. You can always put info out there, you can't always take it back. This site is to help others who don't have experience to know better - be careful how you word things for them and their cham's sake, especially on controversial topics with little scientific data behind it.

 

[lecham]

The comparison was that a dozen cheeseburgers is excess for you, whereas a few vertebrates is probably excess for them. I thought it was a given that it was a metaphor, not literal. I'm done arguing with you, the self-proclaimed scientist who dismisses all others, since you have no merit in your defense and type like a 12 year old. I'd love to see your "papers on the matter". Do share.

the point being you are saying it is "probably excess" states ur innacuracy..im sorry for typing so poorly i just cnt take the time to type like u. i am not self proclaimed anything i am simply stating my personal experience..like it or not tht will be up to any body tht reads up on this matter. there is o reason to be upset ferret...really this is just a conversation between chameleon keepers, not a fight. im sorry ur persona takes it other wise.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

the point being you are saying it is "probably excess" states ur innacuracy

This is a topic without very much specific scientific data one way or the other. I say probably because I don't want to say more than has been proven definitively. The academic concepts are in favor of minimal to no animal protein for reasons I mentioned, but the truth is there are no dedicated studies to this particular aspect. That doesn't mean the concept is wrong, I just can't say for sure in good conscience without good data to back it up. I want to promote truths, not opinions.

there is o reason to be upset ferret...really this is just a conversation between chameleon keepers, not a fight. im sorry ur persona takes it other wise.

Considering how many times you've gone into all caps and long rants to make your point I would say I'm not the one getting worked up. I've already made my point for you to consider. I'd still love to see any proof you have.

 

[lecham]

This is a topic without very much specific scientific data one way or the other. I say probably because I don't want to say more than has been proven definitively. The academic concepts are in favor of minimal to no animal protein for reasons I mentioned, but the truth is there are no dedicated studies to this particular aspect. That doesn't mean the concept is wrong, I just can't say for sure in good conscience without good data to back it up. I want to promote truths, not opinions.




Considering how many times you've gone into all caps and long rants to make your point I would say I'm not the one getting worked up. I've already made my point for you to consider. I'd still love to see any proof you have.

again im sorry if caps offends you..but ther eon my computer and i plan to use them at any given moment. and i from the begining have stated that what i am saying is my opinion and personal experience... i never said you were wrong ferret..i am simply saying a bby lizard will not kill or effect ur cham to a point were it will be on the ground overdosing on a lizard..and tht is my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND MY OPINION.i am for minimal animal protein and again tht is just ME AND MY CHAMS. i am not advertising anything or promoting anyone to do it simlply sharing my experience in this matter.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

If you have them then share them instead of just threatening to! I genuinely want to see them! It's not a threat, I am trying to collect references.

 

[ChameleonsInMyHouse]

this thread is friggen stupid and i think im opting out of it.

so many of us have learned to become softies here on the forum to keep peace and a friendly enviornment going. and obviously some people need to learn that still. the attitudes flying in this one are abolsute garbage and we've been having a POINTLESS debate about it.

Lecham, by all means, do what you want to do, and keep your chameleons the way you have been. theres obviously not a problem in your case (that we really know of), but stop telling or persuading others that this will be ok.

Montane species are alot more susceptible to build ups and their bodies and system cant handle the high supplimenting of vitamins and D3. so this leaves me to ask... why would you feed some of the highest fat and protein content foods?

if they eat them in the wild, there is a reason for that. keep in mind that chameleons do not eat every day in the wild. they can go for weeks sometime. but then they have every inch of nature to aid in processing that in the body.

lecham what you are doing for your cham is wrong and a long term risk youre willing to take.

and i'm out....

 

[lecham]

no need for cussin on the forums, no need for mouthy little punks either. we have young kids around and a lot of mature adults who i'm sure don't want to see anything but help, cooperation and friendliness here.

we can do without people like this guy, just because he owns chameleons doesn't mean we don't have to help him or treat him with respect, that goes for anyone who acts like that too.

after a good night sleep i have come to my senses and realized that i was not having the best attitude about this. chammyhouse i know you are all about caring for the chams and well i am too.. me giving my cham a lizard is my choice and i know like u mentioned it isnt in my best interest to keep doing so and i will definetly keep that in mind, i figured you guys thought or i made u think that i fed my cham lizards like every once in a while,,but that is really not the case i just want to clear that up.
this forum is for evrybody including kids so it is best to keep it as a good enviroment.