Admiral, There be Quads Here!

[fluxlizard]

You?

No not me. I kept a few and bred a few- that seemed to be my mantra in those days for lots of lizards. It gave me good broad understanding and way of thinking and knowing good questions to ask and answer to succeed, but now I look on it as something of a mistake- lots of lost opportunities over the long term. The exceptions I made to this were species that ended up being very popular and commonly bred anyway, so it would have been perhaps more worthwhile to have put more effort into some of these others.

Hey Mike Fisher-
Thanks for the info. Your experience is very much appreciated.

 

[jajeanpierre]

This might be an easy fix for the temperatures but have you considered the humidity? Night time is when the humidity should be spiking as there is no longer anything to lower it. If you have an AC unit running that will strip the humidity in your room to zero very quickly.

I'm at a loss on how lowering the temperature can reduce humidity. If anything, it should increase the humidity, but I know nothing about how window air conditioners work. Humidity can be fixed with misters and live plants. Getting the humidity up is not going to be a problem, certainly less of a problem than raising it in a heated house in the North.

I do not believe they are so fragile that they can't cope with some variation from their native land. Their native land will have a huge variation from season to season, year to year. I understand that taking them out of what their bodies are perfectly designed to deal with will cause stress, and the accumulation of stress will kill them at worst or just make them unthrifty.

I'm still looking for the magic numbers of seasonal rainfall/temps for one spot in Cameroon where they thrive.

Does their range extend into one of the national parks/reserves?

 

[MelissaB]

I'm at a loss on how lowering the temperature can reduce humidity. If anything, it should increase the humidity, but I know nothing about how window air conditioners work. Humidity can be fixed with misters and live plants. Getting the humidity up is not going to be a problem.

Part of what an air conditioner does, is remove humidity from the air.

 

[fluxlizard]

Just goes to show that if only a few people have success with them and those people move on to something else, the supply goes away.

Isn't that the truth?

I feel sort of sick inside when I think of some of the lizards Bert Langerwerf worked with. For some he was the only one and collected them himself to establish his breeding groups. His craig and grozny lizards and others I wonder about regularly.

 

[Mike Fisher]

I know nothing about how window air conditioners work.

They have a condenser inside them. That means they suck moisture from the air that deposits on the condenser. Thus "condensation". That's why they drip in hot humid air. So the more humidity you add, the more the condenser will try to remove. The exception to this is the old style swap coolers that were just a fan blowing over cold water or ice cubes.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Hey Mike Fisher-
Thanks for the info. Your experience is very much appreciated.

No problem.

No worries about your experience on them being 20 years ago. Most of the stuff from 20 years ago or more still works. The only thing I do differently now is better lighting only because LED and T5HO didn't exist back then.

 

[jajeanpierre]

They have a condenser inside them. That means they suck moisture from the air that deposits on the condenser. Thus "condensation". That's why they drip in hot humid air. So the more humidity you add, the more the condenser will try to remove. The exception to this is the old style swap coolers that were just a fan blowing over cold water or ice cubes.

I thought the condenser was in the refrigeration unit--the freon or whatever it is inside goes from liquid to gas which is why it cools. It takes energy (heat) to change states from liquid to gas. They drip because the coils are cool and humid air condenses on them much as a glass of ice water will have condensation on it.

I'll have to find out, but thanks for the heads up.

Edit: Like, duh, the warm air passes across the cool cools. (She smacks herself on the head.)

 

[pamnsam94]

There were a few of us. I was producing 300+ per year for quite a few years. Even then, they didn't get established in the USA. Just goes to show that if only a few people have success with them and those people move on to something else, the supply goes away. I thought they were here to stay and was quite surprised how difficult they were to acquire when I got back into the hobby. I decided to do other species instead and it has been a good experience.

Wow, 300 a year! How many pairs or females did you have at one time in order to produce that many? I suppose I can take a guess by doing the math, but it's easier to just ask. I've never had enough females at one time to even come close to that number.

I'm really wondering what percentage of all those neonates that you and others produced were raised to adulthood. How many of the ones you hatched from WC females or produced yourself as CBB did you raise up to breeding size, or did you move all of them before they reached adulthood? Just curious.

Considering that the internet didn't really become mainstream until the late 90s, I didn't even know that quads were "produced by the thousands" during those years. I don't recall seeing CH quads show up on the paper price lists I used to receive. If being "produced" simply means having WC females laying eggs and then hatching them, in addition to breeding WC quads then hatching their eggs, I can understand how that many could have been produced, especially considering how many seemed to be coming into the country back then. I remember Douglas Dix working with quads and appreciating what he wrote about them because it seemed information on the captive care of quads was kind of sparse at that time.

Perry

 

[Mike Fisher]

I have the guys name and contact information (from the importer) but he has suffered a recent tragedy so I won't be contacting him for some time.

I'm assuming you are referring to Doug Dix who recently lost his son. I produced more quads than him. No reason to contact him. Although he wrote several great articles about what we knew about them at that time, he hasn't kept chameleons in about 20 years. I keep in touch with him about other stuff, but not chameleons.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Wow, 300 a year! How many pairs or females did you have at one time in order to produce that many? I suppose I can take a guess by doing the math, but it's easier to just ask. I've never had enough females at one time to even come close to that number.

I'm really wondering what percentage of all those neonates that you and others produced were raised to adulthood. How many of the ones you hatched from WC females or produced yourself as CBB did you raise up to breeding size, or did you move all of them before they reached adulthood? Just curious.

Considering that the internet didn't really become mainstream until the late 90s, I didn't even know that quads were "produced by the thousands" during those years. I don't recall seeing CH quads show up on the paper price lists I used to receive. If being "produced" simply means having WC females laying eggs and then hatching them, in addition to breeding WC quads then hatching their eggs, I can understand how that many could have been produced, especially considering how many seemed to be coming into the country back then. I remember Douglas Dix working with quads and appreciating what he wrote about them because it seemed information on the captive care of quads was kind of sparse at that time.

Perry

15-20 females, half dozen males. Pretty easy to hit those numbers. Not all of them were adult, I used to cycle through them so I didn't burn out the females. Doug and I got into them at the same time because we got them from the same importer here in the Pacific Northwest. Prior to that, they were not widely available in the USA. I had over 100 enclosures total and an electric bill to match.

I had people driving from all over the USA to buy them from me. Sort of a PITA. Too old for that stuff now.

And if you think 300 a year is a lot, I had ramped up to 3,000 veiled eggs in incubators when I had a problem with a contractor cutting off the power to my incubators during a summer heat wave. Everything was upstairs because I was having a new basement foundation built. I lost everything. That's why I took a long hiatus from chameleon keeping. It was emotionally devastating. After five years of legal wrangling, I did get a settlement thanks in good part to Douglas Dix PhD for his expert testimony.

 

[pamnsam94]

I recall Doug writing about what he looked for when selecting quads. I remember him talking about the spacing of the gular scales, the angle of the horns, etc.. Must have been nice to be able to hand-pick from a large imported group. Most of us just have to take what we can get, often sight unseen. However, as time passes, at least more and more suppliers are willing to send pics than than they used to be, especially considering how easy it is now to take and send cell phone pics.

 

[pamnsam94]

And if you think 300 a year is a lot, I had ramped up to 3,000 veiled eggs in incubators when I had a problem with a contractor cutting off the power to my incubators during a summer heat wave. Everything was upstairs because I was having a new basement foundation built. I lost everything. That's why I took a long hiatus from chameleon keeping. It was emotionally devastating. After five years of legal wrangling, I did get a settlement thanks in good part to Douglas Dix PhD for his expert testimony.

I'm glad you got a settlement. I can only imagine how devastating that would have been.

 

[pamnsam94]

He said one breeder bred them by the thousands.

.

So Mike, would you say that what the importer told Janet is at least an exaggeration or simply a case of him not being old enough to really remember the 90s as she suggested?

 

[Mike Fisher]

I recall Doug writing about what he looked for when selecting quads. I remember him talking about the spacing of the gular scales, the angle of the horns, etc..

Primarily we both looked for the same thing. Gravid females, lol.

 

[Mike Fisher]

So Mike, would you say that what the importer told Janet is at least an exaggeration or simply a case of him not being old enough to really remember the 90s as she suggested?

I'm assuming that he has heard stories of a large quantity being produced in the Pacific Northwest in the 90's and since Doug was the most well known of us PNW breeders by way of his degree and published articles he got the credit for all of it. There were a few of us up here in Oregon and Washington. Perfect climate for quads, but primarily because that is where the importer was located and we could get them straight off the plane.

 

[Mike Fisher]

To which I must add that the few of us there were up here breeding quads didn't cooperate as much as compete with each other. We didn't view it as a "collective" or "cooperative". We were trying to outdo each other in a friendly way. I think it worked well. I remember one time barely beating Doug to some gravid girls once while he left the importer to get some money. He didn't know that I was the one who got them until he saw them at my display table at an expo. Fun times back then.

 

[frankpayne32]

Wow, 300 a year! How many pairs or females did you have at one time in order to produce that many? I suppose I can take a guess by doing the math, but it's easier to just ask. I've never had enough females at one time to even come close to that number.

I'm really wondering what percentage of all those neonates that you and others produced were raised to adulthood. How many of the ones you hatched from WC females or produced yourself as CBB did you raise up to breeding size, or did you move all of them before they reached adulthood? Just curious.

Considering that the internet didn't really become mainstream until the late 90s, I didn't even know that quads were "produced by the thousands" during those years. I don't recall seeing CH quads show up on the paper price lists I used to receive. If being "produced" simply means having WC females laying eggs and then hatching them, in addition to breeding WC quads then hatching their eggs, I can understand how that many could have been produced, especially considering how many seemed to be coming into the country back then. I remember Douglas Dix working with quads and appreciating what he wrote about them because it seemed information on the captive care of quads was kind of sparse at that time.

Perry

I bought my one quad in 1999 as a CBB one month old. Cost me $35! They were definitely common at the time, at least in California. She was a great chameleon.

I'm assuming you are referring to Doug Dix who recently lost his son. I produced more quads than him. No reason to contact him. Although he wrote several great articles about what we knew about them at that time, he hasn't kept chameleons in about 20 years. I keep in touch with him about other stuff, but not chameleons.

I still have the one article he wrote, the original one I printed in the 90's. GREAT article.

 

[fluxlizard]

I bought my one quad in 1999 as a CBB one month old. Cost me $35!

That was about what I could get imported adults for back in those days.

 

[frankpayne32]

That was about what I could get imported adults for back in those days.

Amazing! I still kick myself for not buying the $100-200 parsons I would run into. Probably best that I didn't though as I was still pretty young at that time.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I'm assuming you are referring to Doug Dix who recently lost his son. I produced more quads than him. No reason to contact him. Although he wrote several great articles about what we knew about them at that time, he hasn't kept chameleons in about 20 years. I keep in touch with him about other stuff, but not chameleons.

Yes, that's the person.

Do you have copies of his articles?

Thanks.