bad veiled situation

[PardalisGirl]

Question....

Thanks for the good pictures.....that helps a lot. How well does she use her back legs? Can she hold her belly off the ground if she walks? In the first picture I am seeing something about the curvature of her spine near the hind legs. It is more curved than normal. And the way she has her back legs positioned looks a little awkward too. Her front legs don't look that bad. Chams have recovered from more serious MBD than her front legs indicate. I would like to know how well she uses those back legs....

Your picture shows clearly how tall her cage is. A fall from that high could do serious damage to her spine or her legs from the impact. Even though the dirt is a little softer, I can't caution you enough about what a fall could do. Until her bones are strong again she is at high risk for fracture.

You will need to go to a good drug store like Rite-Aid or Bartells to get the calcium stuff. Not sure what stores you have where you are. Her eyes to look better and she does not look starved. Are you able to get her in some real sun?

 

[LBonawitz]

shes always crotched down or laying so her belly is always on the ground/branch. but when holding her i have seen her stand on just her back legs and reach for a branch. i asked the guy that owns her if i could take her outside for some real sun light and he asked that i not because he lives in apartments and "all the neighbor hood kids would want to touch her." so she has not gotten any real sun light, yet. she is a lot more active than she was yesterday, but her eyes are still almost always closed.

also why does she have such "thick" ankles?

 

[dondeb562]

well in her state I would not think it would have been from over supplimenting. Likely from MBD. I also still think she looks gravid. Her belly is far too round. Perhaps early staged to where you can really feel them yes, but I would suspsect with the care she has she should be thin not ballooned....

 

[SliK JiM]

thanks! her eyes are almost always shut. that may be caused from UV? i think she is blind in her right eye, and the left one she can kind of see out of, enough to shoot at moving objects, it just takes her longer to focus with the one eye. so what kind of liquid calcium would i use? the stuff for humans, like calcium sandoz? and how much would i give her?

Yeah, too much UV can cause photokeratoconunctivitus, here's an image of a skink suffering from it:

You said he's go a 5% tube over her now, so you should hope to see this decreasing if it is, but try and get the tube a few inches above the top of the cage, as normally the UV has to penetrate a thin mesh so loses significant intensity quickly, which in this instance it doesn't. Go here for a picture of UV intensity given off by a tube http://uvguide.co.uk/fluorescenttuberesults.htm
The maximum a veiled would ever want to be exposed to is roughly 50uW/cm^2 (If I remember correctly). So if the tube is close to the basking spot she may be receiving too much UV.

Someone has already said about the liquid calcium but I've always been recommended to use the stuff for Parrots (had no experience of using it myself yet - touch wood). And yeah, you should be able to find dosage information somewhere on the internet.

The laying bin you have probably isn't deep enough as filled. Maybe filling it to the top would be, buts it's hard to gauge how deep it is from a photo! You'll need between 6-12" (so go for 12") for them to think that it is an acceptable laying area!

As for pooing, it'll be the hydration issue. They need water for the digestive system to work effectively. So, keep trying to give her as much water as possible to see if it alleviates the situation!

p.s - if she hates you and survives, I think you'll be able to live with it!

 

[SliK JiM]

Also, when you say thick ankles, do you mean, they're just wide, or do they look swollen and slightly bulbous? Take a look at this site: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1WmXfTC8ucw/R9bXF4t3fwI/AAAAAAAAAIY/LLtft0Wimts/s1600/gout.jpg
It may be Gout from the dehydration she is clearly suffering from as there'll be a build up of uric acid in her blood. It can be quite a serious problem. Get a few detailed photos of the suspected problem and it'll make it easier to tell. For now, all you can do is mist heavily and offer her as much water as possible.

If you can, try and touch it gently with a stick (don't use a finger other wise you'll get a nasty bite!) If she shrugs it off like its an annoyance then there's no reason to panic. If she acts like she's just been bitten by something, then it may well be Gout.

[someone else might be able to wade in here, but is Edema similar to Gout in symptoms? I know little about it, but as far as I know, it's fairly serious and a vet will have to administer treatment as it means there is a serious imbalance in supplementation - that site has some information about it, so have a read as that's about the extent of my knowledge on the disease]

 

[panthercrazy]

The dosage for liquid calcium I was given for the male I'm working with now with severe MBD was 0.1ml for his weight of 9.8g - since getting the calcium, his weight is up to 12.9g so they have advised I can go one line over 0.1 on the syringe. When I asked the drug store, in this guys case, the dosage is 0.1/10 g of weight.

It is so sad to see these animals put through something like this, especially when it's a lack of the owner's "want" or "attitude" to ensure their needs are met. In a situation as this, it seems that the "Free" animals always have their life valued as worthless

Good luck with her, and I commend you for taking on such a challenge, as heart wrenching as it is.

 

[questionbox]

please keep us posted and i love how diligent you are with this. its great.

 

[LBonawitz]

Also, when you say thick ankles, do you mean, they're just wide, or do they look swollen and slightly bulbous? Take a look at this site: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1WmXfTC8ucw/R9bXF4t3fwI/AAAAAAAAAIY/LLtft0Wimts/s1600/gout.jpg
It may be Gout from the dehydration she is clearly suffering from as there'll be a build up of uric acid in her blood. It can be quite a serious problem. Get a few detailed photos of the suspected problem and it'll make it easier to tell. For now, all you can do is mist heavily and offer her as much water as possible.

If you can, try and touch it gently with a stick (don't use a finger other wise you'll get a nasty bite!) If she shrugs it off like its an annoyance then there's no reason to panic. If she acts like she's just been bitten by something, then it may well be Gout.

[someone else might be able to wade in here, but is Edema similar to Gout in symptoms? I know little about it, but as far as I know, it's fairly serious and a vet will have to administer treatment as it means there is a serious imbalance in supplementation - that site has some information about it, so have a read as that's about the extent of my knowledge on the disease]

she hardly gets mad, i don't think she has the strength for that, but i have touched her rounded ankles; they were really squishy and my fingers just sank down to her bone in there. it didn't seem to bother her too bad she just tried to climb away.

 

[LBonawitz]

and thank you all for reading this and lending your knowledge, no matter how big or small, i take it all into consideration.

as for her laying bin i'll have to buy more washed sand for her

 

[PardalisGirl]

Keep plugging away.....

I really admire the effort you are putting in here with this girl. The eye issue can be due to dehydration and the stress of illness in general. I don't think she has been spending enough time at the very very top of that cage to cause any UVB issue. Especially with a 5.0 light. She could have had a previous infection in the one eye to make it blind. She is an adult Veiled and there is a long history for her that you are probably not aware of. She can live and be happy with one blind eye if you can solve the MBD issue. I really feel the tongue issue is related to that. That vibrating/twitching thing you described (forgot to respond to it) is also a sign of MBD. The back ankles don't look that bad. In one picture they look totally normal. In a few others they look a little compressed but it could be the angle. Veileds do have a "shape" to their ankles that flares out a bit.

What is going on as far as the vet goes? Is he still going to do that after he gets paid? Getting a fecal done (to rule out parasite issues) and blood panel to check for white cell count, kidney/liver issues and blood calcium level are base things to do. An X-ray to show bone density and possible eggs would be good too. But that's way beyond the price you estimated for him.

For now the calcium syrup and hydration are first. Is there anyway he would let you take her to your place for some real sun if he doesn't want to do it at his place? There is more in real sun besides UVB. I really believe it can boost the immune system too. I have seen it work "miracles".

 

[SliK JiM]

Yeah, it was more of the care before now that I was questioning the overdose of UV. As you said, a day outside with some natural sun would be fantastic for her.

If she didn't react badly to you pushing her ankles, then it's probably not that much of a problem. She would have react sharply if it was Gout or some other nasty problem.

Yeah, just keep up with water and liquid calcium if you can. Keep us posted!

 

[LBonawitz]

he has asked me to watch her this weekend because hes going camping. i said "so your not taking her to the vet than?" he said "oh, no, friday before we leave i'll call and set up an appointment." i'm just worried he's not going to go through with it. she really needs a vet, and someone who knows what their doing.

 

[AJA]

sounds like he is taking advantage of you at the expensive of the chameleons' well being why doesn't he want to give her up? is he that blind ( that's PC for 'stupid') that he can't see she needs some serious attention?

 

[LBonawitz]

maybe i'll try the "oh, no man, she died sorry. i buried her in the back yard under the cherry tree. sorry for your loss. thats a real bummer" when he comes back on whatever day from camping. but really though i'm just happy to have her in my care whenever i can. if she has 2 good days in her last few days than even that would make me feel better.

 

[SliK JiM]

Yeah, just steal the cham away from him as he clearly doesn't care for such an amazing animal!

 

[LBonawitz]

i'm going to pick her up after work today. i'm excited. the sun might be down by the time i get outta this place, but tomorrow will be a great day for her!

 

[PardalisGirl]

That sounds great

That sounds great! You will also have more time to observe her and see everything going on. I'll be curious to hear how she eats and if she poops. Somehow I have to think she "knows" you are trying to help her.

 

[LBonawitz]

i sure hope she knows i'm trying to help.

i picked her up on my way home from work today. she really enjoyed the natural sun light. shes having a really hard time in her weekend cage though ( its my chams old cage) she can't/won't hold on to anything for very long. i put her in the shower like i do sometimes with my guy and she could barely hang on to the vines i had to catch her a few times. it seems like the only thing she can really count on is her tail. needless to say, she hated the shower. but she loved the towel i put her on after. i ended up leaving her on that towel and placing it and her in her cage. i figure if she can climb up a vine from the bottom she should be okay to hang out on it... she can get all four legs off the towel, making her way up a vine, then she falls back down. i don't get it. i know joe would just place her on a vine and she would stay put and never move. she really likes going horizontaly, vertical is not her thing ( how weird!)


here are some pictures from the last 3 hours. (one is my boyfriend trying to get her to drink water (which she has not done yet, not even in the shower)


oh! one more thing. she has really long nails and when trying to grab a branch will get them caught on her skin and pull until her foot becomes free, i'm woried shes going to cut herself. any ideas?

someone had asked about her belly on the ground. here is a pic

 

[chameleon guy]

She looks receptive. the long nails is one sign, those yellow and blue markings. She may need an egg laying bin soon.

 

[LittleLionLover]

She looks so much better compared to the very first pictures of her. I commend what your doing, it's a wonderful thing that can be very rewarding for both parties and I can see great results on her part. Best of luck to you.