battle of the chameleons??!?!!?!

[Olimpia]

Some of my thoughts.

- If you think NatGeo or any documentary film crew ISN'T pitting animals against each other for a shot, then you are naive. My father did documentaries as a young man before be directed and produced other projects and I can tell you that it isn't just coincidence that at the precise moment a crew is somewhere, some amazing interaction between creatures is happening. Sometimes it certainly is, but other times, there is another hand at work.

- Male animals don't typically fight to the death, and usually not even to injury. It's a battle of who is stronger and who has more stamina to keep fighting. The loser usually gives up when he sees he cannot win and retreats, letting the winner gain the territory, the females, etc. We all see sparrows fighting in Spring for the ladies, how many male birds do you see drop dead from the trees following these fights? It's usually a lot of posturing and intimidating, and very few injuries.

- In captive breeding programs with the idea of reintroduction one of the problems zoo keepers have is that they unintentionally select for traits that may not be selected for in the wild, like tameness and fecundity (reproductive success). Animals that may not be successful in the wild find captivity a lot easier and become more successful individuals, and those offspring are then released into the wild - do you think they're better individuals for it? Sparring to choose which individuals still are the strongest, most successful males to breed may not be out of the question. It reduces the human influence on who breeds and who doesn't.

Those are my thoughts, as another biology double-major about to graduate. On the right or wrong, I don't care to input.

 

[italian chameleon]

Some of my thoughts.

- If you think NatGeo or any documentary film crew ISN'T pitting animals against each other for a shot, then you are naive. My father did documentaries as a young man before be directed and produced other projects and I can tell you that it isn't just coincidence that at the precise moment a crew is somewhere, some amazing interaction between creatures is happening. Sometimes it certainly is, but other times, there is another hand at work.

- Male animals don't typically fight to the death, and usually not even to injury. It's a battle of who is stronger and who has more stamina to keep fighting. The loser usually gives up when he sees he cannot win and retreats, letting the winner gain the territory, the females, etc. We all see sparrows fighting in Spring for the ladies, how many male birds do you see drop dead from the trees following these fights? It's usually a lot of posturing and intimidating, and very few injuries.

- In captive breeding programs with the idea of reintroduction one of the problems zoo keepers have is that they unintentionally select for traits that may not be selected for in the wild, like tameness and fecundity (reproductive success). Animals that may not be successful in the wild find captivity a lot easier and become more successful individuals, and those offspring are then released into the wild - do you think they're better individuals for it? Sparring to choose which individuals still are the strongest, most successful males to breed may not be out of the question. It reduces the human influence on who breeds and who doesn't.

Those are my thoughts, as another biology double-major about to graduate. On the right or wrong, I don't care to input.

you are right olimpia, especially in the early documentaries in the 70's they used a lot of "tricks" to make it more spectacular. even Jaques Cousteau used to do that a lot
however, fight between males can be pretty hardcore in some species and in chameleons even if they don't hurt each other they can be easily flipped off branches and fall from great hights.

you are also right about the captive breeding thing but I don't think it applies to chameleons as nobody is breeding them to release them back in the wild.you know better than me they are bred for stunning colors and stuff like that!

in fact, i still don't understand in what ways fighting chameleons could benefit reproductive fitness in captivity. if the problem for cham breeders is limited gene pool, I don't understand what's the benefit of breeding "fighters" as this actually limits gene pool because less chams would be allowed to mate.

if you don't want to resort to wild caught animals just cross breed your chams with chams from foreign breeders (e.g european) making sure that their animals don't come frome the same bloodlines as yours

even if the problem was that captive bred chams are too small and tame (NOT), they can be selected for size and aggressiveness without fighting them.

finally, good luck with your degree Olimpia and thanks for the input

 

[pssh]

I don't remember exactly but I know that Chris Anderson had more info about it previously. I would contact him for more info.

Maybe in the last year or so there have been others to get past that F5 thing. I don't know. As far as I've heard, no one had yet though. That said, I don't know everything, so...

 

[chameleoman]

wooooooooowwwwww everyone here needs to shutup and stop arguing about some dum video no matter what what happened happened just stop arguing and focus on what chameleonboys thread was all about instead of you guys hijacking it and arguing about stupid stuff and eliza i care too about what happens with those chams




P.S. SOME mod or brad should REALLLLYYYY close, or lock this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[drcrossfire]

^^^just because the thread changed to a similar topic doesn't mean it should be shut down. There has been some interesting discussions presented.

 

[Elizadolots]

I believe it's possible to split threads. The discussion about letting males spar is interesting and, I think, deserves to go on, but the original topic has gotten lost and the original poster deserves some respect.

Splitting the thread would be the best option, I think.

I haven't chimed in on the sparring issue, but I will note that people let dogs and cats engage in behavior like that all the time, we just call it "playing"....and, just like ChamBust, we break it up if it goes too far. We call it "exercise" we think it's good for them.

 

[AllFallDown]

I believe it's possible to split threads. The discussion about letting males spar is interesting and, I think, deserves to go on, but the original topic has gotten lost and the original poster deserves some respect.

Splitting the thread would be the best option, I think.

I haven't chimed in on the sparring issue, but I will note that people let dogs and cats engage in behavior like that all the time, we just call it "playing"....and, just like ChamBust, we break it up if it goes too far. We call it "exercise" we think it's good for them.

Ok, everything I am about to say is being said respectfully to all involved and is based on my personal perspective on what forums are about.

I am not jumping back into this one, but I will point out that the title of the thread is: "battle of the chameleons??!?!!?! "

Personally, I think this is still within topic. Yes, the original discussion which prompted the thread was about a bunch of kids battling their lizards, but the underlying principle was really about the ethics of battling lizards and whether one should do something if they were to observe such behavior.

Now, to the people who want the thread locked. People are obviously still interested. Why should the thread be locked? Because you have seen it at the top too many times (asking the mods to give preferential treatment)? Because you don't like the conversation (IE you want it censored)? If you don't like it, don't open it. Skip over this one. Ignore it. Why should the conversation end simply because you are annoyed with seeing "battle of the chameleons??!?!!?!" in the new posts list regularly? There are plenty of other threads which go on even longer. Should those be locked too?

I for one think it is a very relevant topic. I also think it is germane to the original topic even if it is a slight deviation from that the original poster intended (that is my personal opinion of course, the mods may feel different). That's forum life. I have yet to participate in a forum in which every thread ended exactly looking like the conversation which started it. I do think Elizadolots's idea of splitting the thread is not a bad compromise if nothing else. I do not see grounds for closing the thread personally- as tired of the conversation as I might be.

Just my $0.02

 

[djfishygillz]

New thread about off topic chameleon battle video

https://www.chameleonforums.com/new-thread-about-chameleon-battles-83152/

I agree that the original thread poster should be respected so IMO if anyone feels a need to talk further it should continue on the linked thread about the chameleon battle youtube video.

 

[drcrossfire]

Good idea.... But not going to happen. This thread is 90% about the posted YouTube video. If u want to separate the OP you may be more successful.

Plus... Most of peoples thoughts are already on here.

 

[djfishygillz]

Dang!!!

Good idea.... But not going to happen. This thread is 90% about the posted YouTube video. If u want to separate the OP you may be more successful.

Plus... Most of peoples thoughts are already on here.

Lol, thought it was worth a try!!!!

 

[Elizadolots]

Threads can be split by moderators or administrators. Let them handle it if that's what they want to do.

 

[Olimpia]

I will also say that when I had my 4 panther males living together in a free range, they never fought but they did sort things out in their own way. I never stopped them because I never felt like I had to, they were dealing with things EXACTLY as I would let my dogs sort things out.

For example, if one male was down at the giant feeder container looking to eat and he saw another male walking down towards it, if he didn't feel like sharing that day, he would inflate, gape, and warn the other male to give him space. The other would comply, and go to the nearest branch and patiently wait his turn while the other deflated and continued eating. On another day the two males may be seen happily sharing the feeder container, side by side, without problems. Since they can't growl they do a quick display, the other respects it, and voila. Peace in the community once more.

If one of the males walked over a male in such a way that maybe hurt him, the stepee would snap at the other. They never usually made contact, although it wasn't unusual to see a bite bruise on the tail among the four once a month or so. But again, I let my oldest snap at the little one if he jumps on her and hurts her, it's how animals tell each other to not do something again.

I never saw mine really fight for anything, but if two flared at each other over one of the several basking spots, one would very quickly give up as the loser and move on to the next basking spot down. If it had ever come down to biting, I would have stepped in. But I allowed the posturing because it was necessary for them to communicate with each other how to deal with situations and maintain the peace. It may have been worse if I stopped them every time one flared at the other, not letting them communicate what they want from each other.

To me, these Jackson's weren't in any real danger. Look at other Jackson's videos of them fighting, it's not a bloody, dangerous affair. They wrestle with what they have and one gives up and walks away - it's not a fight to the death. If one gets pushed off a branch, well, they're built for that and he'll probably be fine. But again, I don't care about the right and wrong of allowing males to do this in a supervised setting so I won't comment. However, I think the claims of abuse are really exaggerated.

 

[okiroo]

I dont think its a big deal to let them fight or flash eachother now and than. i'd do it if i cuddnt get a male in the mood to breed. they get fired up ect. not a big deal so long as you watch close and if something were to happen u'd take them to the vet and never do it again. i wuddnt with to unmatched animals either beacause the likely hood of one being harmed is alot higher. wuddnt do it for fun but for breeding someday, yeah mabey.


i let some of my chamleons FR together. no problems a quick nip or display wont fix overtime. with females i feel its less likely although my more agressive veiled is much less likely to be warned of by my hoe than vise versa. i've seen it happen when the hoe just doesnt want to put up with her somedays tho.

 

[DanSB]

I will also say that when I had my 4 panther males living together in a free range, they never fought but they did sort things out in their own way. I never stopped them because I never felt like I had to, they were dealing with things EXACTLY as I would let my dogs sort things out.

For example, if one male was down at the giant feeder container looking to eat and he saw another male walking down towards it, if he didn't feel like sharing that day, he would inflate, gape, and warn the other male to give him space. The other would comply, and go to the nearest branch and patiently wait his turn while the other deflated and continued eating. On another day the two males may be seen happily sharing the feeder container, side by side, without problems. Since they can't growl they do a quick display, the other respects it, and voila. Peace in the community once more.

If one of the males walked over a male in such a way that maybe hurt him, the stepee would snap at the other. They never usually made contact, although it wasn't unusual to see a bite bruise on the tail among the four once a month or so. But again, I let my oldest snap at the little one if he jumps on her and hurts her, it's how animals tell each other to not do something again.

I never saw mine really fight for anything, but if two flared at each other over one of the several basking spots, one would very quickly give up as the loser and move on to the next basking spot down. If it had ever come down to biting, I would have stepped in. But I allowed the posturing because it was necessary for them to communicate with each other how to deal with situations and maintain the peace. It may have been worse if I stopped them every time one flared at the other, not letting them communicate what they want from each other.

To me, these Jackson's weren't in any real danger. Look at other Jackson's videos of them fighting, it's not a bloody, dangerous affair. They wrestle with what they have and one gives up and walks away - it's not a fight to the death. If one gets pushed off a branch, well, they're built for that and he'll probably be fine. But again, I don't care about the right and wrong of allowing males to do this in a supervised setting so I won't comment. However, I think the claims of abuse are really exaggerated.

It might be important to emphasize that you are watching them carefully in this setting and know what signs to look out for to avoid real trouble.

I would also add that we often hear how stress will kill a chameleon and that this sort of husbandry could significantly reduce life spans and health even if there is no immediate injury. I can nearly guarantee nobody can prove that unless a long term controlled study has happened which I doubt. For all we know this kind of practice could improve overall life span and health.

There is a term for it I can't remember but the point is in some animals competition is a necessary part of health.

 

[mortthelizzard]

slap some sense into them and watch them closely, they might start the fight. if they do call the SPCA right away.

 

[ChamBust]

what a thread this has turned into...so many great ideas and opinions. I initially regretted posting the video on youtube...lots of anger was directed toward me, and I felt bad. Then I saw there were also likeminded people here in the forums which is invigorating and refreshing =)

I'm not some bored, careless kid...I'm a proud father and providing husband. I did what I did because I felt it to be something that I felt many can appreciate. I guess there's that hint of 'entertainment value', but the underlying intention was that I could offer a piece of nature that few have had the pleasure of experiencing. I think chameleons are amazing and I love them to death.

Fyi I haven't battled my chameleons since; I guess I don't really see the point. I've read every single post on this thread and feel like a lot of good came out of it. Whether you observed this thread, posted on it, or even insulted me, I thank you for it.

 

[Seeco]

This was a post of mine from like a year ago regarding panther versus veiled:


WHICH SPECIES IS THE KING OF ALL CHAMELEONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's how I think it would go down (remember the animals weigh the same):

Round one, the chameleons see each other.

Round two, they recgognize absolutely nothing that needs to be immediately engaged in combat and/or mated with.

Round three, they decide that neither can eat one another.

Round four, they go in opposite directions, occasionally looking backwards to see what the other one is doing.

Round five, they both decide "AW YOU KNOW WHAT? THAT MOFO IS LOOKING AT ME BACKWARDS!" and charge one another.

Round six, they both go airborne a few feet before clashing. The Panther does a front flip and the Veiled rotates so that it is flying through the air upside-down with its belly up.

Round seven, everything goes into slow motion. A cricket chirps.

Round eight, right when the Veiled passes under the Panther, they simultaneously tongue shoot

Round nine, to be continued...