Chameleon with no eyes...

[Decadancin]

Part of the issue with this discussion is that some tried to offer ways of ending the animals life. Weather or not you offered good advice, it likely should have been handled in a better way. The OP has made a choice and, even though I would have chosen not to do it, that doesn't make me right. The actual ways of euthenizing an animal did not have to be so graphic. Many young children look at the forums and I don't think I want them trying something like that. Please remember the original point of the discussion and stop bickering so we can at least follow along with the OP and the experience if we choose to. It does take an amazing amount of effort and dedication to attempt something like this, and for that I am impressed, even if I may not agree. I would like to follow along without the added drama.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

Agreed! My 10 year old boy is a member here too! He sure does not need to read such graphic detail!

 

[trickedoutbiker]

Poor baby anole? Tough. That's nature. Pure nature. I don't feel bad.

You seriously don't expect everyone to be able to stop on a chameleons head do you? That's revolsive. They're are other ways to go about it. No one wants that image stuck in their head.

saying that you need to smash it's head on concrete or cut it's head off, without having any hesitation, is a little far fetched. There are more civil, less goreful ways to do it. Its sick you'd put one under your shew. Why do that to yourself?

Yep.

The OP is 20.... try telling a little 10 or 12 year old with a super sick, untreatable chameleon that a good way to off the herp is with a pair of scissors. The image that would leave!!

And as for trickedoutbiker, he cares very much for his animals, Earth, and nature. And he is a personal friend of mine. He takes care of his animals and would euthanize if necessary, but not in such a gruesome, horrible way. So to call him a "supposed animal lover", is out of line. I think you need to step off of your high horse and accept the fact that people will have different views. Its life. There's no need to attack everyone who doesn't accept everything you do and say. I think you need to go hunting and be educated on natural death vs. Trying to play God.

Thanks Nick.

It does take an amazing amount of effort and dedication to attempt something like this, and for that I am impressed, even if I may not agree.

Amen.

I would like to follow along without the added drama.

I intended to post only once more, but I was labeled a "SUPPOSED animal lover" and that just don't fly with me. You can't paint me that way when my portrait tells a different story. I've owned, loved, and cared for many animals thus far in my life and plan on many more. I had to speak up about it. I won't tolerate being bullied like that. Don't ever label me something I'm not without knowing my history. Sorry if this sounds like drama as that was honestly not my intentions. I just had to speak up. Sorry.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Again, this is not a criticism of the OP and his/her decision to work with this baby. Below is part of a discussion of euthanasia, once that decision has been made.

@trickedoutbiker
Euthanasia: n. 1. An easy and painless death. 2. Act or method of causing death painlessly, to end suffering. Webster New World Dictionary

From Mader's REPTILE MEDICINE AND SURGERY, Second Edition:
Physical means of euthanasia may be the only practical methods in certain situations. Concussion (a crushing blow to the head) either yields the animal unconscious or yields instant death. This is acceptable in certain circumstances..."

Nowhere, @trickedoutbiker, in Mader's veterinary textbook do I find any reference to feeding a reptile to animals as an acceptable method of euthanasia.

There is nothing kind, compassionate or stress free about allowing your animal to be eaten, torn apart or slowly die of dehydration/starvation which is what happens when you just let them go and abdicate your responsibility to the animals in your care. Instead of this being about what is best for the animal, you have made this about your feelings. Someone who loves their animals does not do this to them.

I agree, it is not easy to euthanize a baby chameleon. I agree, some people just can't do it themselves, and when they can't they get someone else to do it be it a vet, a farmer or a hunter.

And you are correct, I was wrong to just trust that man would dispatch that little rabbit for me. That was a learning experience for me, believe me, and I didn't like what I learned about me. It has haunted me for years.

 

[Crashbandit05]

So as someone is has their CET (certified euthanasia tech). I feel my .02 is warranted. I work in animal welfare and we deal with sick/injured animals almost daily. The methods described earlier are imo, horrible! Euthanasia has to be as calm and gentle for the animal as possible. I went through a two week course and had to take a test on proper procedures. I won't go into detail because not everyone needs/should know or are comfortable dealing with such an emotionally draining situation. To the OP, if you do feel the time has come, please go somewhere (vet, animal shelter( that has a CET and that understands the emotional toll that it takes.

 

[alphakenc]

OP lives in Turkey,his country is in an unstable time right now,I can understand where the OP's thoughts coming from.....
Too many Boxing rings n too many referees here,we all can make suggestions,but he is the one will make his own decision!!!
PEACE SELLS BUT WHO IS BUYING?

 

[alphakenc]

This is what he already wrote....

Hi everyone again. I couldn't look at the topic because of some problems in my country, Turkey Anyway, baby is still alive. Force feeding is difficult but still useful. For this week in streets, I saw how people can hurt other people, how can they kill a person by beating them. I saw how easy to take a life from someone. So now you want me to kill a little baby chameleon. I can kill it dozens of times. I can give it to predator birds from balcony. But I didn't. It is all about what do you expect from this hobby. For me, I have never expected to kill a little chameleon for its disability. I really understand how you look at this situation. You want me to think with my brain not my heart but believe me this is not a decision by made from heart.

 

[jajeanpierre]

So as someone is has their CET (certified euthanasia tech). I feel my .02 is warranted. I work in animal welfare and we deal with sick/injured animals almost daily. The methods described earlier are imo, horrible! Euthanasia has to be as calm and gentle for the animal as possible. I went through a two week course and had to take a test on proper procedures. I won't go into detail because not everyone needs/should know or are comfortable dealing with such an emotionally draining situation. To the OP, if you do feel the time has come, please go somewhere (vet, animal shelter( that has a CET and that understands the emotional toll that it takes.

I did some research into euthanizing reptiles and decaptitation appears not to be the best method for a conscious animal since the head might be able to perceive pain for some time after decaptitation.

However, quick complete destruction of the brain is acceptable and not a horrible method of euthanizing a reptile or any animal.

Another acceptable and approved method per Mader's textbook is rapid freezing by dropping an animal that is less than 40g into liquid nitrogen. Cooper, Ewebank, and Rosenburg (Euthansia of Tortoises, 1984) suggest that reptiles frozen in a conventional freezer may experience pain as ice crystals form within their tissues. I'll have to check with a friend who ended up with a severe frost bite (frozen tissue) of his fingers and feet and ask him if the freezing part of it caused him pain. (To lighten this discussion up a bit, my friend was descending Everest after reaching the summit. He slipped and fell during his descent. You can imagine the fear he felt falling, especially since he was oxygen starved a the time. In his fear, he voided his bladder down into his boots.... And in his altitude-affected mind, somehow lost his gloves in the incident.... I met some amazing people in my 14 years in Saudi Arabia.)

Mader's veterinary textbook goes into great detail with photos indicating the entry point and angle for the complete destruction of the brain with a captive-bolt stun gun or a gun. A few gram baby chameleon is too small to use a captive-bolt or a firearm on. Stepping on a few gram baby is effective, instant, humane and cost effective.

So, let's be clear, complete destruction of the brain is an acceptable method of euthanizing a reptile or any animal for that matter. There is nothing "horrible" about it. I can't think of a more humane method. It is instant and there isn't any handling of the animal. We in North America get too caught up by how things appear to us rather than relying on the science of what actually is happening.

By the way, my understanding is that zoos routinely decapitate and then completely destroy the brain. I'm not sure if they use anesthesia before decaptitaion, which is how Mader would euthanize using decaptitation.

 

[jajeanpierre]

<< eats popcorn >>

Wimp.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Wimp.

Chameleon smasher

Anybody ever see somebody who died of hypothermia? How about death by helium? Suicides in general? I have. Lots of them actually over time.

So many hypotheticals here. Seriously. Popcorn is about the right response.


I for one never want an animal to suffer. However I know getting eaten by another animal has gotta hurt. Despite that, I let nature be nature mostly. If you can't handle nature, don't own a pet.

I don't pre-kill roaches, stick bugs, or nearly anything I feed my Parson. Why? Same reason you all don't.

I don't pre-kill anoles or geckos the Parson actively hunts and eats. Why? Because it's natural and humans shouldn't try to force their viewpoints on everything concerning nature.

I do pre-kill the monthly mouse fuzzy. Why? Because I won't take a chance on hurting my Parson, that's why. It's not for the mouse's needs. If I cared about the needs of the mouse to that degree why own an animal that eats one (I own a lot of boas I should add).

Nature is not nice, she's a mean mean bitch for those of you not in the know. Pain is part of life. Avoid it if you can but don't ever think you can make it disappear.


Now, I've had the occasional shitty experience in keeping so many animals over so many decades like anybody else in the hobby. For my two cents, freezer turned up to max is the way to go if you don't have access to a Vet. You get cold, you lose sensation, you go to sleep, you don't wake up. In the case of a cold blooded animal this is 100%. In the case of people, I've seen the looks on the faces of the dead, I haven't seen a look of pain or discomfort yet in hypothermia cases or the helium ones.

Smashing the little critter to prevent pain? I think you give up a little of yourself if you go that route.

If the owner wants to give keeping it alive a try, well, at least his heart is in the right place. It isn't going to work for a huge number of reasons, but the owner doesn't have the experience to know that so cut him some slack.


Wimp? Not at all. Never mistake silence for a lack of strength. Emotional topics are not my cup of tea since there is not a right or wrong answer. There is not a solution like knowing which light bulb to buy, but in emotionally charged topics the participants always think there is one. Passions replace practicality.

 

[Virgil1972]

I agree if you can't handle the way nature does things then you probably should not be apart of it. Nature is a serial killer and a psychopath, she has no compassion and no boundaries when it comes to ending life. Humane is a human idea that nature wants no part of.

 

[WAMBO]

I gotta admit, at least I now know options just in case the worst happens. I'm an MD and don't like suffering of any kind. Sometimes, terrible sounding things must be done, especially for quality of life. When there is no quality of life, then tough decision are often made. I only did 1 year of a surgical residency, but was a little freaked out when doing my first leg amputation, or assisting in opening a chest in the ER for a gun shot victim, and massaging the heart myself. [I'm a radiologist now, but only recently quit doing vascular work because I'm over 50]

 

[Virgil1972]

I gotta admit, at least I now know options just in case the worst happens. I'm an MD and don't like suffering of any kind. Sometimes, terrible sounding things must be done, especially for quality of life. When there is no quality of life, then tough decision are often made. I only did 1 year of a surgical residency, but was a little freaked out when doing my first leg amputation, or assisting in opening a chest in the ER for a gun shot victim, and massaging the heart myself. [I'm a radiologist now, but only recently quit doing vascular work because I'm over 50]

I think a big problem is people think that just because one way sounds less violent then it must be more humane.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Humane is a human idea that nature wants no part of.

I had to steal that one. Now by all means, I agree we as people should try to do better than nature in regards to things we can, human intervention is not always a bad thing. I'll use medicines to keep a child alive, or a pet, or myself, because nature is a bitch.

But sometimes as humans we take this idea of Humane to a level unrealistic in our world.

 

[Nursemaia]

I gotta admit, at least I now know options just in case the worst happens. I'm an MD and don't like suffering of any kind. Sometimes, terrible sounding things must be done, especially for quality of life. When there is no quality of life, then tough decision are often made. I only did 1 year of a surgical residency, but was a little freaked out when doing my first leg amputation, or assisting in opening a chest in the ER for a gun shot victim, and massaging the heart myself. [I'm a radiologist now, but only recently quit doing vascular work because I'm over 50]

I can't tell you how many times I've done a painful procedure on a patient as a nurse. Medicine and nature can be very cruel.

 

[WAMBO]

I can't tell you how many times I've done a painful procedure on a patient as a nurse. Medicine and nature can be very cruel.

As you can imagine, over the past 25 to 30 years, I've done thousands of procedures. But with even the best of sedation and pain meds, most patients still feel pain. I'm just glad that several percutaneous procedures such as biliary and renal drainages, have been replaced with endoscopy and cystoscopy. Although I doubt that there many doctors that can do them as quickly and competently as me. Don't get me wrong, because I enjoyed my work, and even married one of the vascular technologists too [and had 3 kids], but after age 50, I decided that general radiology suited me better.
So, I'm thinking that euthanizing an animal should probably be done quickly.

 

[Nursemaia]

As you can imagine, over the past 25 to 30 years, I've done thousands of procedures. But with even the best of sedation and pain meds, most patients still feel pain. I'm just glad that several percutaneous procedures such as biliary and renal drainages, have been replaced with endoscopy and cystoscopy. Although I doubt that there many doctors that can do them as quickly and competently as me. Don't get me wrong, because I enjoyed my work, and even married one of the vascular technologists too [and had 3 kids], but after age 50, I decided that general radiology suited me better.
So, I'm thinking that euthanizing an animal should probably be done quickly.

I wholeheartedly agree that euthanasia should be quick and painless. As a little girl I watched my mom work as a lobbyist to get the decompression chamber banned in my state. I've seen slow and painful deaths that no animal deserves.

 

[halself]

just put him in an air tight container with some dry ice
the ice becomes co2 and he will just go to sleep
letting him suffer is cruel

this is the most cruel way to kill them and its literally illegal.

 

[charlotteclaraschameleon]

Hey @chamillion any updates on the little guy? Hows he doing? <3

 

[jajeanpierre]

this is the most cruel way to kill them and its literally illegal.

I think you might be wrong on both counts.

The American Veterinary Medical Association lists CO2 as an acceptable method of euthanizing although their are caveats depending on the species. Freezing is not acceptable unless the animal is anesthetized.

I thought CO2 would be cruel as well, but reptiles respiration isn't triggered by the partial pressure of CO2 the way it is with mammals, but by partial pressure of oxygen.