Cohabitation of a chameleon and a Phelsuma

[Julirs]

As of now, if i had the proper installations ready, i'd probably try it. However, this is not close to being done and i'll try to get more information, especially from those who did try similar projects.

And yes, of course i will be writing more about the process. I'll try to add as much information as i can, to ensure that if it works it can be reproduced and if it doesn't work, people can help me find ways to make it work. And if it's really not a viable project, to make sure that nobody else try it again!

So your reason for trying it is just to see if it works. Since neither animal is going to enjoy your experiment-I still do not see the purpose.

 

[morpheon]

Julirs, please, stop.

You are obviously reading only what you want. Did i say i ONLY wanted to see if it works? No. Then why saying "so your reason for trying it is just to see if it works". All you've been doing so far is try to prove me wrong, to say how bad i am, how things are not the way i see them. Things are not all black nor all white. You should learn to make nuances.

Look, you have your opinion, i have mine. If you have something new, please say it, but stop trying to prove me wrong, or at least try to write things in a way i won't take it as a personal attack.

And how can you tell that neither animal is going to enjoy my experiment?? I still remember mentionning three cases that worked well so far. Are you saying they didnt enjoy the experiment. If so, based on what?? Your experience?? If so, you have tried this experiment?? If not, how can you be so sure of what you have written?!?

To me, you are stubborn and you do not want to help me. All you do is critize and claim that what i might do is shit. So unless you have something worth reading and replying, i am done with you. I thank you for trying, but so far you have just wasted my time with your stubborness and your writing that was clearly wrong and untrue. Even Chris proved you wrong, and all the quotes i did from books too. See you and i hope you the best of luck! See you~~

PS: Anyone else is still very welcome to reply to this thread, as i still want to gather more information and more USEFUL information that isn't a criticizing of a potential project.

PPS: I am not home these days, so at best i can reply one a day. So i will not be very active for the next few days, but i'll make sure to read everything as soon as i can!

 

[Julirs]

Please explain to me how you would define that the animals would be enjoying it. As much as you think I am saying the same thing over and over, so are you. You have shown no more compelling argument for this experiment. Chris is a good freind of mine, and no where did he say that the animals enjoy hanging out. I think in natural environments you see alot of things in close proximity (alligators and baby ducks, reptiles and insects, fish and bigger fish, etc.-there is always the potential for a hungry one eating the other.) He also agreed it was not a good experiement to try, and I will further it by saying it is not a good experiment for you to try with your limited chameleon and gecko experience. Again-please quit taking things as personal attacks.

 

[morpheon]

Oh yeah and Julirs, what is your personal motivation in posting here?? If i think like you, you JUST post here to prove me wrong! How ironic!

See you!

And learn how to express yourself correctly if you want me to not take it personal! So far, only you and one other person wrote things that pissed me off! Chris, Monkey and a few others said it wasn't a good idea in their opinion, and i quoted them to thank you for their input!

Chris wrote that chameleons do hang together in herds, which is the opposite of what you wrote with your VERY BIG EXPERIENCE that owns mine! Hahahaha.


EDIT: I am gone for the day, so BYE.

 

[Julirs]

Oh yeah and Julirs, what is your personal motivation in posting here?? If i think like you, you JUST post here to prove me wrong! How ironic!

See you!

I am posting because I do not like to see animals subject to things that have a potential adverse affect on them.

 

[morpheon]

Then you must hate everyone who first brought chameleons in America without knowing much about them! Do you know how many died to finally end up getting good husbandry conditions??

 

[Julirs]

Then you must hate everyone who first brought chameleons in America without knowing much about them! Do you know how many died to finally end up getting good husbandry conditions??

Why do you repeatedly bring this up? Now that they have been kept and studied, this is no longer an issue. Do you not think thousands of people have not already tried what you are trying? I certainly do not see many people RECOMMENDING THIS! Do you?

 

[Julirs]

Oh yeah and Julirs, what is your personal motivation in posting here?? If i think like you, you JUST post here to prove me wrong! How ironic!

See you!

And learn how to express yourself correctly if you want me to not take it personal! So far, only you and one other person wrote things that pissed me off! Chris, Monkey and a few others said it wasn't a good idea in their opinion, and i quoted them to thank you for their input!

Chris wrote that chameleons do hang together in herds, which is the opposite of what you wrote with your VERY BIG EXPERIENCE that owns mine! Hahahaha.


EDIT: I am gone for the day, so BYE.

Ok-I am also done with this thread-and your last few comments define your immaturity.

Again-in captivity does not equal natural conditions. Lots of things hang out in nature, chameleons can be found in the same space, they do come together to breed and define/defend territory, I have no reason to argue with Chris as I have infinite respect and he has taught me alot AND he has been to Maddy and studied in natural habitat.

The fact that you even get pissed off when someone does not agree with you does not put you in the most favorable light, so it is not I that has trouble expressing myself.

And finally it is a FACT that my experience OWNS yours-please find someone to disagree.

 

[Monzon]

My last cham was a Jackson's that I got as a juvenile from a professor of biology at University of Oregon. I wasn't even looking to get back into chameleons but you know how that is. This cham had an entire bathroom of live plants floor to ceiling all to himself (honey, we never use that downstairs bathroom). Misting, sequential lighting, variable temps and drops - it was like a cloud forest in there and he did extremely well. Always stunning coloration, a great hunter and eater, a pleasure to behold. I had a Bahamian Dwarf boa in the other room that I could not get onto hoppers so I had to order a dozen Anolis sagrei(?) from a south florida herp store. I fed the boa two of them, froze six of them and threw four into the "jungle" The jacksonii xan. nailed one straight away and proceded to chow down. I was impressed but had a bad feeling about it. It was not my intention that he eat any of them and I thought it unlikely that he would even see them in the week or so that they would cohabitate. Anyways, in the morning the Jackson's was down at the base of a ficus - gray and fading fast. He was dead by noon. Maybe a virus. Possibly a toxic shock from some bioamped substance. I'll never know for sure. I do know that many species have lizard on the menu in the wild, but this was a major bummer that should not have happened. Never really wanted to know the answer to that question.

 

[KingJulien]

Your way to express yourself was nice, thank you.

To your rational, i would simply say: how many chameleons have been hurt/killed/neglected/tortured (use the word(s) you want) when they first were introduced into artificial habitats???

If we'd use your thinking, there would be no chameleon in our house, at all, unless we'd live at Madacasgar (or any other country with chameleons living in the wild...).

Of course, you could tell me "is it necessary to try your project to have two different animals cohabitate??" To this, i would reply: "Was it necessary to have chameleons imported??".

To me, the comparison is amazingly similar. It may not be for you, and it is your choice, and i have no choice but to respect your position. However, i just hope you'll respect my position as well!

This has been an interesting thread. There are moral issues at play, and I can see how your logic made this connection from the idea of:

"we (humans) risked and caused harm/suffering when importing panthers"

to

"it is okay risk further risk/harm/suffering to try cohabitation"

I think it has been demonstrated already that an attempt at cohabitation would not be a scientific experiment, but rather more of a hobby and a curiosity, which is similar to the hobby and curiosity of keeping a chameleon in the first place, but it is also very different.

I also think that unless you are performing a scientific experiment, in the most pure sense of the terminology, you should not cause or knowingly expose an animal to the potential of harm or suffering.

An exception might be feeding mice to a snake, in which case the mice should be killed as humanely as possible.

This "experiment" or whatever you choose to call it has the potential to cause long term suffering, with no real benefit to either animal.

So....I respectfully disagree with the idea, for the same reason that I would not personally buy a wild caught animal unless I had the years of experience and knowledge needed in order to breed the animal in captivity and make them available in place of other wild caught animals, decreasing exportation. The potential of unneeded suffering outweighs the personal benefit.

 

[bugman]

Wow...

It comes down to the law of nature. Survival of the dominant species. When they are being fed safely and often they will have no interest in the other species because it is easier to eat a roach, cricket or super If they are feeding competitively than they may fight or kill depending how aggressive or threatened they feel.

 

[KingJulien]

Wow

It comes down to the law of nature. Survival of the dominant species. When they are being fed safely and often they will have no interest in the other species because it is easier to eat a roach, cricket or super If they are feeding competitively than they may fight or kill depending how aggressive or threatened they feel.

What it comes down to is that animals are animals. We don't always know for sure what they are thinking, what they will do, or what their motivations are. My pit bull is the sweetest dog you'll ever meet, and he can eat from his bowl of food whenever he pleases, but I'm not going to leave another pet in a room with him unsupervised. He's a great dog, but he's still an animal.

 

[Syn]

It comes down to the law of nature. Survival of the dominant species. When they are being fed safely and often they will have no interest in the other species because it is easier to eat a roach, cricket or super If they are feeding competitively than they may fight or kill depending how aggressive or threatened they feel.

So uh, what kind of laws of nature do you know about?

Do you know about instinct?.... Never mind, I think I know the answer to that already.

 

[morpheon]

In the nature, there isn't just dominant/dominated animals. There are animals that are able to tolerate others, along with some who takes benefits from cohabitating with other animals.

For example, i live with my girlfriend, and even if i like to say that i dominate her ( ), i rather tolerate her and indeed have benefits in living with her! And so does she as she gets the chance to work on her patience skills with me!

Joke apart, my main idea is there is a chance that certain animals can cohabitate with certain chameleons, and i have clues that it may work with my Pardalis.

But for the curious people, i have put this project aside. I can't say that in a year or so i won't try it out, as i can't predict the future (yet). However, i still believe in the project, and if i ever try it, as i said before, people will be aware of it, as i plan on taking as much notes as i can, and as i will monitor everything i can, and try to determine if this is viable or not. So yes, i will keep a very close eye on them since i don't want any of these two (the Phelsuma and my pardalis) hurt, and therefore the project won't be started unless i have a large amount of free time for them on the course of a few months at least.

Of course, in a scientific way it won't be flawless. However, the more notes i take, the higher the chances are that people will be able to reproduce the experiment if it works.

 

[KingJulien]

This has been an interesting thread. There are moral issues at play, and I can see how your logic made this connection from the idea of:

"we (humans) risked and caused harm/suffering when importing panthers"

to

"it is okay risk further risk/harm/suffering to try cohabitation"

I think it has been demonstrated already that an attempt at cohabitation would not be a scientific experiment, but rather more of a hobby and a curiosity, which is similar to the hobby and curiosity of keeping a chameleon in the first place, but it is also very different.

I also think that unless you are performing a scientific experiment, in the most pure sense of the terminology, you should not cause or knowingly expose an animal to the potential of harm or suffering.

An exception might be feeding mice to a snake, in which case the mice should be killed as humanely as possible.

This "experiment" or whatever you choose to call it has the potential to cause long term suffering, with no real benefit to either animal.

So....I respectfully disagree with the idea, for the same reason that I would not personally buy a wild caught animal unless I had the years of experience and knowledge needed in order to breed the animal in captivity and make them available in place of other wild caught animals, decreasing exportation. The potential of unneeded suffering outweighs the personal benefit.

I'm sorry I should have said "I can ALMOST see how you got from point A to point B."

Point A:"we (humans) risked and caused harm/suffering when importing panthers"

Point B: "it is okay risk further risk/harm/suffering to try cohabitation"



Because it's a bit of a slippery slope, isn't it?

 

[morpheon]

Also, about the anolis experiment, i wouldn't even try such thing. Here is why.

1) The anolis may have been wild caught or poorly breed/handled in any petstore that isn't very clean. The result is the anolis may easily have been parasited/sick and therefore poisonous and deadly to the chameleon. The conclusion to this point is if i ever get a Phelsuma, he will be tested a few things for parasites, and it will be inspected by a good vetenerarian to avoid any sort of contamination.

2) I have not read nor seen any true examples of cohabitation between an anolis (or more) and a chameleon, making it even more risky than the cohabitation of a phelsuma madagascariensis and a Furcifer pardalis. Note that in the previous posts, i have 3 examples that all three cohabitations worked for a very large amount of time. The shortest is probably at 8 months now, while the others are around a year and a half and 2 years.

3) Finally, i haven't studied much the behaviors and habitat of anolis. Without looking deeper into the habits and needs for an anolis, it would be a pure random experiment, and this is not how i like to handle things.

 

[morpheon]

Because it's a bit of a slippery slope, isn't it?

It is for everyone!! Just think of all the risks for the animal's life when it comes to lab tests, for example. Or when it comes to importating chameleons to the US and Europe when it first started. Many people said for both subjects that it just wasn't worth it, and these people weren't completely wrong!

My goal is not to start a debate over the worth of any animal's life to the scientific research, because this is not the purpose of the post. There is an off-topic section of the forum where such topic can be discussed! I am just trying to say that yes, many point of view can be considered in such subject, and a point of view different from mine will not necessary be wrong, so won't be mine. I don't even think that one day we might end up to any universal answer to that!

 

[KingJulien]

Also, about the anolis experiment, i wouldn't even try such thing. Here is why.

1) The anolis may have been wild caught or poorly breed/handled in any petstore that isn't very clean. The result is the anolis may easily have been parasited/sick and therefore poisonous and deadly to the chameleon. The conclusion to this point is if i ever get a Phelsuma, he will be tested a few things for parasites, and it will be inspected by a good vetenerarian to avoid any sort of contamination.

2) I have not read nor seen any true examples of cohabitation between an anolis (or more) and a chameleon, making it even more risky than the cohabitation of a phelsuma madagascariensis and a Furcifer pardalis. Note that in the previous posts, i have 3 examples that all three cohabitations worked for a very large amount of time. The shortest is probably at 8 months now, while the others are around a year and a half and 2 years.
3) Finally, i haven't studied much the behaviors and habitat of anolis. Without looking deeper into the habits and needs for an anolis, it would be a pure random experiment, and this is not how i like to handle things.

So you are ignoring warnings and sticking with your first assertion that if others were able to cohabitate the gecko and the chameleon, that it is a much safer "experiment". I'm still not agreeing with your logic.

 

[KingJulien]

It is for everyone!! Just think of all the risks for the animal's life when it comes to lab tests, for example. Or when it comes to importating chameleons to the US and Europe when it first started. Many people said for both subjects that it just wasn't worth it, and these people weren't completely wrong!

My goal is not to start a debate over the worth of any animal's life to the scientific research, because this is not the purpose of the post. There is an off-topic section of the forum where such topic can be discussed! I am just trying to say that yes, many point of view can be considered in such subject, and a point of view different from mine will not necessary be wrong, so won't be mine. I don't even think that one day we might end up to any universal answer to that!

So everyone has an opinion and we can all just share and no one is right and no one is wrong?

That is the kind of thinking that is the antithesis of science.

The issue of animal cruelty in the name of research is exactly the purpose of this post. You argued that this was an experiment. You, in doing that so called "experiment" would be risking the safety and well being of both animals.

 

[elrojo]

I *really* want to keep out of this one, but I have to ask... How big of a risk to the safety of the animals is it really? Particularly the cham. If you notice stress, then separate them.

I've seen some of the nastiest behavior on this forum I've ever seen in this thread. And about every type of logical fallacy.

All this said, I have both species and no interest in trying to cohabitate them. But it's not worth belitting someone over.