Concerns for Hercules the Panther

[mantra]

Hello, I am new to this forum and am a new Panther Chameleon owner (it actually "belongs" to my 10 year old son but it is certainly a family endeavor). We just purchased beautiful Hercules and we have some concerns, but first some info on him/us:

1 year old Panther Red Bar Ambilobe

Concerns: that he is dehydrated and/or has debris in his eye that is causing him not to drink and not to eat as much as it seems he should.

We have only had him for 2 days

He was in a small screen enclosure but we have relocated him into a 4'x2'x2' glass and screen combination

We have 2 live plants, an Umbrella and a vine Pathos

Humidity is kept between 60 and 75%

Basking temp at day is 90 and bottom of cage reads 65 to 70.

UVB light during the day in addition to basking light

We have a Big Dripper and a reptifogger used only for 10 minutes today because the humidity got up to 80% pretty quickly

The previous owner fed him mostly meal worms and mostly by hand (I know, not good).

We have introduced gut loaded crickets and phoenix worms and he has eaten a few so far and a few meal worms out of bowl, in cage and by hand when we were desperate (he wasnt eating).

In the past 48 hours he has eaten 5 medium sized meal worms, 3 crickets and 2 phoenix worms, doesnt seem like much for such a big guy (he is about 18" long nose to tail tip)

He has not had anything to drink on his own that I have detected despite showing interest in looking at the drips from the big dripper that are dripping onto leaves (he has access to the drips). We also mist the cage 3 to 4 times per day so all the leaves have droplets.

When we bought him he had one eye that was slightly sunken, he rolled it around the inside of the lid and would try to bulge it to one side. He mostly keeps it closed but when he ate he would open it to aim at his food. I suspect he has debris in there, there is no discharge.

Since we have had him, he has not pooped

Concerned that he is dehydrated, I gently squirted some water in his mouth (once yesterday and once today) when he was chewing some food. He didn't like this but seemed to tolerate it enough.

His colors are VERY bright green, red/maroon, orange - more green during the day and more red at night. I don't know how to compare since he is so new to us.

Any suggestions? We plan to take him to a local vet if things do not get better soon.

Thank you!

 

[craig90]

If you post pictures of him, people on here can tell you if they see anything wrong.

The amount of food doesn't seem too low considering he has just been relocated so he could be stressed out a bit still. They also don't eat as much once they are full grown and at one year old he is probably mostly done growing.

Sometimes they don't like drinking in front of people as well. Once he poops, there should be a white part (urate) and a brown part. If he is well hydrated the white part will be white, but if he is dehydrated there will be yellow and or orange mixed in with it.

 

[mantra]

Thanks Craig90, I have tried to post a pic from my iPhone, this is a test, if it works I'll post another of his eyes.

 

[mantra]

Pic of questionable eye



Here is a pic of his eye, you can really see the difference. I am not sure why the pics are displaying sideways. Sorry bout that!

 

[kplatvoet]

I would take him to a vet that knows chameleons as soon as possible - not because it looks extreamly bad but because he actually looks quite healthy besides the eye to me- especially since he's been eating mostly meal worms and such. Getting him treated early on and giving him proper set up and care and you will have one nice looking chameleon - waiting on it could cause it to get worse and cause a bunch of other problems-

 

[ridgebax1]

The action you describe sounds like he is trying to clean debris out of his eye. Before taking him to the vet I would try putting him in a warm shower for 15-30 minutes. Take a sturdy plant for him to sit on and put it in the shower. Make the water warm but not hot and direct the shower head toward the wall so the water coming out hits the wall. It will bounce off the wall onto the chameleon and plant. Let him sit in there for at least 15 minutes. Maybe even do this a couple times a day and see if that helps with the eye problem. If it doesn't then I would take him to a vet. He may have dirt or even stuck shed in the turret and just can't get it out on his own.

 

[werecat]

If you've only had him for a couple days I wouldn't worry quite yet about his eating and drinking. He needs some time to settle in. Many chameleons are private drinkers so you just may not be seeing him drink. Still I agree with the other poster who recommended the shower. This will both stimulate drinking and be good for helping flush debris out of his eye. Besides this though, try to leave him alone and in privacy as much as possible the first week or two. Also, you may try spraying the cage and plants down with a spray bottle a couple times a day in addition to the dripper. The fogger will not provide big enough drops for drinking so the added misting with a spray bottle may help to stimulate drinking.

Regarding his eating, sounds like plenty of food to me for his size. If he's full grown or nearly full grown he will taper off food a lot. My adult eats about 3-4 items every 2-3 days (about 12 a week) and is still very healthy and robust.

The eye is a concern and it is important to watch and see if it worsens in any way. It is hopefully just debris but if you start seeing discharge or if it doesn't get better in a week you should see a vet. There is a technique for rinsing the eye with saline. This is often good to try before seeing the vet. I've done it a lot since my otherwise healthy panther has a persistent eye problem that we've been treating. Feel free to PM me if you would like details.

 

[mantra]

Thanks everyone! What a great forum, I really appreciate everyone's advice and thanks for the PM details on the eye flushing Werecat.

My concerns have been reduced to the eye after everyone seems to think the food consumption is normal and he may be stealth drinking when we are not looking (which is not very often as we are pretty transfixed on the guy right now - can't keep our eyes off of him).

We may do the shower or or the eye flush today and I will update on progress. Thanks again!

 

[mantra]

update

We took Hercules to the vet the other day, doc said that his eye is most likely a congenital defect that he was born with or from a lack of vitamins in his diet that the previous owner did not disclose and passed it off as something in his eye. He flushed the eye but it is no better than it was. Hercules has obviously learned to adapt with the weaker, smaller and mostly closed eye - when he shoots for his food he is mostly on target at 3 to 4 inches away and is able to open the affected eye during this time.

His first poop with us (at the vet, which I guess sums up a vet visit for any animal - scared the poop out of him!) looked mostly normal with a little orange at the end of the urate, the doc sent it to the lab to look for parasites since it looked a little gelatanous but the results came back normal.

I have yet to see him drink, and we have been watching intently as I have had a week off work and plenty of time to gawk at him. The first few days I gave him some water with a spray bottle while he was chewing his food. But for the past few days I have not done that to encourage him to drink from the Big dripper we have set up or off of the leaves of the Umbrella plant that gets lots of droplets from the Reptifogger - still have not seen him drink or even lick a leaf. Today his poop was very small and his urate was mostly orange, I know this is a sign of dehydration and I will probably try to give him some water with a syringe tomorrow. He was acting strange today by pawing/clawing at the walls and even walked around on the ground and did not show any interest in food.

Does any one have any suggestions on getting him to drink on his own and perhaps from a different source? His big dripper is located 3 inches above a branch where he has easy access. The drops then drip onto the branch and trickle down to a leaf and then into a bowl at the bottom of the cage so there are plenty of places where he could drink from if he wanted/needed to.

Thanks, I will try to post some pics.

 

[absolutbill]

I'm sorry to hear that the eye issue may not be treatable, but at least Hercules has learned to live with it. Be careful squirting water into his mouth - it's extremely easy to aspirate chameleons. Instead I would suggest a couple of things to help his dehydration:

1. Try feeding hornworms which are high in water content, and a non-watering solution.

2. Try the showering method that was described above. This works to stimulate drinking with some chams just due to the length of time they have to decide to drink.

3. Try misting additional times in addition to the dripper you have. I don't know where you are located, but winters are lower in humidity, and if you are up north with heaters, you could be drying out the air further.

For my crew (2 panthers and a veiled), I have an automatic mister that goes off 3 times a day for 15 minutes per misting cycle. The cage DOES dry out in between mistings, and I may catch some flak on here for "over misting", but it works for my chams, and that's all that matters for me.

Also, I noticed you mention you have a bowl at the bottom of the cage to collect water. Please remove that - it's a health hazard if bacteria builds up in it and then he drinks from that (or if he poops in it). That's also the reason why we discourage waterfalls. Best of luck with him!

 

[Tyaeda]

Welcome to the forums mantra! You'll find this place to be an awesome source of information, with lot's of friendly and knowledgable people.


Taking hercules out of his cage for showers might stress him out, especially since he's not used to you yet, even though they are really good for him. When my veiled Mr.Pink was having eye problems I would warm up some distilled water and give him a really good manual misting a few times a day. He much prefered the warmer water over room temperature stuff, and it stimulated his thirst and would encourage him to wash his eye out. Like another person said, chameleons wash their eyes by bulging them in and out, and blinking. Small to medium sized hornworms are also very juicy, and chams seem to love them

Watch the other eye for similar symptoms. If this happens, I would be worried about possible infection, and vitamin deficiencies.

 

[werecat]

Sorry to hear that Hercules' eye might not be treatable. I can relate as we have been treating our panther's eye for over 3 months and were told by the vet that he might just have to live with it. Our panther's shooting range is also reduced but he seems to live with it fine. We accommodate him when we hand feed. I would recommend always keeping an eye on it to make sure nothing gets worse.

As for the drinking, maybe increasing the duration of mistings will help. Some chameleons need to sit in the rain for a few minutes before they are stimulated to drink. Also, you said you've been spending a lot of time watching him since you got him. This is certainly understandable since it is hard to resist a new chameleon, but some chameleons are very private about drinking. Being watched might be stressing him out too much to drink. It may be best to leave him alone in complete privacy most of the time for a week or two until he acclimates.

If you do any hand mistings, try spraying down into the cage from the top. This will cause large drops of water to form on and fall from the screen. It's more like rain and the sight might stimulate him.

Lastly, others mentioned hornworms for hydration. Silkworms are another great option for moisture.

Hope it's just nerves and that he starts drinking soon!

 

[mantra]

Thank you for the tips, horned worms on order and shower later this morning with indirect water. I'll remove the catch bowl for the water but then how do you capture what equates to 5 or 6 cups of water? Plants can't take up that much water.

Also, seems he is on a hunger strike except for meal worms which I know are not the best for him but he is getting skinny all of a sudden - this is his 4th day of refusing crickets and Phoenix worms. However I have read if meal worms are gut loaded they are good. Opinions?

Thanks!

 

[FlChamMom]

Thank you for the tips, horned worms on order and shower later this morning with indirect water. I'll remove the catch bowl for the water but then how do you capture what equates to 5 or 6 cups of water? Plants can't take up that much water.

Also, seems he is on a hunger strike except for meal worms which I know are not the best for him but he is getting skinny all of a sudden - this is his 4th day of refusing crickets and Phoenix worms. However I have read if meal worms are guy loaded they are good. Opinions?

Thanks!

Most people use some kind of drainage system, there are threads that have some great ideas, go to "search" for those.

Have you tried super worms? They can be gut-loaded just like crickets and are more nutritious than mealworms. I have never met a lizard who didn't love them. Silkworms and butter worms are also what I use when my guys get picky.

 

[werecat]

Yes, check out "drainage systems". Until you get something set up, you can keep the bowl but try to keep it covered with screen/mesh so your chameleon can't access the water and can't fall in and drown. Then once you have your proper drainage set up, you can remove the bowl for good. I have a pretty simple drainage system. I will try to post it later.

 

[mantra]

Great advice everyone, I really appreciate it. I felt desperate to get him hydrated today so he spent 15 minutes in the shower today - after some initial panic he seemed to really enjoy it, he hunkered down in a "rainy" spot and opened his mouth repeatedly to do what I think was drinking. Other than the shower I have been hand misting and have a reptifogger and try to keep humidity around 70%. I am considering a MistKing instead of the Reptifogger, do people have preference? The Mistking looks quite robust and adjustable to the second instead of the minute. I also bought a Zoomed Hygrotherm but the RH was off by 20%! I returned it and will try another but can't accept a 20% deviation. Next thing to work on is the drain. Thank you all.

 

[carol5208]

If he will sit still on a branch and let you, try hovering the dipper over his head and drip the water on the tip of his nose.If you lift the dripper up in the air without the tube(I don't use the tube at all) it should drip directly through the screen and then you can make it drip exactly where you want it. This is how I get my two chameleons to drink. One will start drinking right away. The other one usually takes a few minutes, but he usually starts opening his mouth and will take in some water that way. He is a very handsome guy. Sorry he is having problems with his eye.

 

[mantra]

If he will sit still on a branch and let you, try hovering the dipper over his head and drip the water on the tip of his nose.If you lift the dripper up in the air without the tube(I don't use the tube at all) it should drip directly through the screen and then you can make it drip exactly where you want it. This is how I get my two chameleons to drink. One will start drinking right away. The other one usually takes a few minutes, but he usually starts opening his mouth and will take in some water that way. He is a very handsome guy. Sorry he is having problems with his eye.

Thank you, I will try that.