Crossbreeding.... In the wild.....

[lisagr07]

If there is an area where two different locals border or crossover into each other....
Do/will chameleons crossbreed? Take a randy male Ambilobe... If there is a female of his local and a female of a different local... ready, willing and able... Does he recognize his own local and breed with her or will he not be choosie?

The reason for the question is I've seen keepers that have acquired gravid WC females,, is it just assumed that the resulting babies are sired by a male of the same locale, or is it just a guessing game, let's see what we got, once the babies hatch?

Thanks

 

[camimom]

The male will choose whoever is hot to trot at that time so to speak.

WHen people get gravid wc females, they hope that their documents saying where it came from are correct, that she didnt get switched, etc.

But usually people will keep hatchlings from wc females and grow the males out some, to see what they have.

 

[babyjoe]

If there is an area where two different locals border or crossover into each other....
Do/will chameleons crossbreed? Take a randy male Ambilobe... If there is a female of his local and a female of a different local... ready, willing and able... Does he recognize his own local and breed with her or will he not be choosie?

The reason for the question is I've seen keepers that have acquired gravid WC females,, is it just assumed that the resulting babies are sired by a male of the same locale, or is it just a guessing game, let's see what we got, once the babies hatch?

Thanks

good question ive often wondered that too.or if in the wild that 2 locales live in close enough quarters to come in contact

 

[lisagr07]

good question ive often wondered that too.or if in the wild that 2 locales live in close enough quarters to come in contact

Thanks Joe,,, exactly my thoughts!!!!

 

[camimom]

THis issue has been brought up before.

THere were rumors that some males and females of different locales were released on Nosy Faly, and that this explains the problems with certain coloring on that locale. [do not bring up the faly debate again, trust me, not worth it]

Chameleons breed. Panthers are panthers. It doesnt matter to a male what locale it is, as long as its female and willing. they cant tell the difference.

 

[lisagr07]

THis issue has been brought up before.

THere were rumors that some males and females of different locales were released on Nosy Faly, and that this explains the problems with certain coloring on that locale. [do not bring up the faly debate again, trust me, not worth it]



Chameleons breed. Panthers are panthers. It doesnt matter to a male what locale it is, as long as its female and willing. they cant tell the difference.

No, no.. I am not a debater.... I'm not interested in that....

This is more of what I wondered,,, can they tell the difference and will they go with "what they see/who's available" or "instinct" to "keep it in the family/local".

Sometimes my mind wanders..... I think of things and I ask them.....

Thanks for the reply,,, it makes since.... Lisa

 

[Olimpia]

The short ecology answer is that yes, between one population and another there is always a bit of gray area. It's impossible to avoid!

 

[lisagr07]

The short ecology answer is that yes, between one population and another there is always a bit of gray area. It's impossible to avoid!

Kinds what I figured... Thanks Olimpia!

 

[italian chameleon]

The short ecology answer is that yes, between one population and another there is always a bit of gray area. It's impossible to avoid!

island locales maybe "purer"

 

[nick barta]

When you buy an imported female, she may have all the documentation that she is a specific locale, lets say Nosey Be. And, she may truly be a Nose Be, but the possibility of her mating with any locale in one of the holding areas in Madagascar, or during shipment, or when they hit the US is a real possibility, and happens often.

Typically, orders are built with village people collecting chameleons, and holding them for the buyer. The buyer will pick them up, and take them to another holding area where an order is being built for shipment, and there may be other locales in the holding area.
In the best of worlds, they may then ship to the US, but there may be other holding areas before they are shipped out.

All these holding areas typically are is bushes/small trees that have a fencing around the area that the chameleons cannot climb. They put all the chameleons in the holding area, so interbreeding does happen. They often put rotting meat in the area to attract flies to eat...

I have always wondered how many US keepers hatch out and grow the eggs from a gravid female import, and because the grown juveniles look like an Ambanja locale, declare the female to be Ambanja, when she is actually a different locale.

 

[Kent67]

Agreed. On an island there's no room for intergrades.

This has been brought up before but something just clicked for me. I've been keeping wc panther chameleons since 1991-1992 and have been very interested in locale variation ever since. There are definitely intergrades between wild "locales" on the mainland. What just clicked is the change from Ambilobe to Ambanja. There is an intergrade there that is imported from time to time that doesn't quite look like the "classic" form of either. I'll try to find a picture. I believe Ambilobe's were first imported to the US in 2001 or 2002 so that was 9-10 years of breeding panthers before I ever saw one. Back in the 90's if those intergrades were imported they were sold as Ambanja's. Today, they're sold as Ambilobe locale.

From Ambilobe north towards Antsiranana they start loosing blue in the bands but the green, red, and yellow stays pretty similar. The same thing on the east coast. If you compare the locales on the map to accurately ID'ed or better yet, photographed in the wild, panther chams you can literally see the transitions up the coast. The only thing that doesn't make much sense to me is the west coast transition. Antsiranana (Diego Suarez) up north, the Ambilobe every color in the rainbow panthers, then Ambanjas with darker versions of all the Ambilobe colors, a little further south in Djangoa they're still looking pretty Ambanja-ish, then there's a river and BAM! they're pink. How did that happen?!?

 

[lisagr07]

Oops,,, I really wasn't trying to open "the can of worms" all I wondered was if a male ambilobe would chose a female ambilobe over another local.... Can he recognize the difference, and choose his own local ??

 

[Pearryboi]

Bumps !!

 

[coldbloodedAL]

* then there's a river and BAM! they're pink. How did that happen?!?

Lmao... BAM! That is funny.

 

[Olimpia]

Of course! Islands are much more limited in their options. I was referring to the mainland locales.

Lisa, I don't think they care! This is definitely a species where the females pick, which is why the males are flashy and the girls are not - because female sexual selection is at work. So I don't think the males care at all, a girl is a girl is a girl. So if I had to guess, the choice is really up to the female. And if other species are any guide, females tend to pick the most exaggerated traits, like colors, feather lengths, etc. So I wouldn't be surprised if someone did a study with females of, say Nosy be, who are used to mainly blue-green males and let them choose between them and bright red Ambilobes, if they wouldn't be more drawn to the Ambi. Or really any male that was vastly different from the typical blue-green.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Oops,,, I really wasn't trying to open "the can of worms" all I wondered was if a male ambilobe would chose a female ambilobe over another local.... Can he recognize the difference, and choose his own local ??

all panthers are the same species. the local is totally irrelevant for breeding. a male panther will breed with any female panther and visa versa, regardless of the local.