Early detected Coccidia infection.

[Barye]

Hello.
As my first Cham, Jojo the 1st, passed away due to a parasitic infection, I didn't want my next one to suffer the same, so I'm much more cautious in caring about him.
It happened though, that due to disinfecting the enclosure with anti bacteria chemical mix (Virkon) the parasites most likely survived it, and according to my research, they need special fluid containing ammonia used against them to wipe them out completely.
While Jojo the 2nd seems completely healthy, had his second shed flow completely fine. He both eats and drinks normally, I just wanted to ensure that his insides are as well as he looks like.
I provided the vet with his one day stool, and the results were negative
It looks like he's infected with Coccidia.
I already know what I have to buy in order to wipe all this trash off (Kilcox) Please tell me if it will be effective enough, if you heard of it.
Generally, it's a blend of high grade synthetic phenol, glutaraldehyde and a quaternary ammonium compound.
I'm going to get the detailed list of cures to purchase tomorrow.
If you know the different sources of Coccidia, except the lack of usage of ammonium based fluid on the pre-infected enclosure, I would be much helpful for writing about them.

 

[Beman]

Hey there did you get a positive fecal test for coccidia on the new baby?

Coccidia oocysts can live on surfaces for years... Things like bleach will not even kill them off. We recommend stripping the cage of all things that are porous and throwing these away. Things like plants and branches can not be cleaned well enough to ensure they are not still contaminated. And porous materials should not be cleaned with what we recommend therefor you have to throw them away.

For the cage you would strip it down completely take it either outside or in a bath tub. Clean with dawn and hot water then you rinse really well. Then you want 40 volume liquid peroxide. Go to Sallys beauty supply and get a gallon of it. You want a spray bottle, gloves, and I recommend protective eye wear. You will spray the entire surface of the cage down so it is wet. Needs to sit wet for a period of 20 minutes to destroy the oocysts. Then you will spray the cage down thoroughly with water. Make sure the cage is rinsed really well. Then let it dry out.

From there if the cham is in fact infected you want a pretty bare cage. Get flukers fake vines since these can be wiped down and spot cleaned easily. Bare bottom cage to easily wipe out fecal. I used a layer of paper towels on the bottom which made it easier to pull them out with the fecal.

Again if the cham is infected you want to clean the cage like this weekly. You want to make sure you are medicating with the right dosage and med type from your vet. Typically recommend getting at least 2-3 repeated fecals tested after treatment to ensure the parasite is in fact gone. Once you get the first clean one you can relax with the weekly cleanings and stripping the cage but you still want to spot clean just in case. By the 2nd clean fecal it is generally safe to add in foliage and real branches.

 

[Barye]

Yeah, the test result was positive, I just meant that the consequences for the baby were negative.

So, Will it be okay if I take all the climbing things from the enclosure and put it into a bathtub and wash it (i've got no living plants, so all of them should not get destroyed in the process), then spray the entire enclosure intensively with liquid peroxide, and then with water?

I will also need to remove all of the soil and place down the paper.
There is still one thing. The enclosure background is indeed, a porous decoration made out of clay, foam and mortar.
Is there any possibility of saving it, instead of destroying it? like by using the hot steam?
If not, I will eventually remove it for the sake of baby's health, however in ideal world I'd still like to save it.

Here's the sculpture I'd prefer to keep in the background (The enclosure doesn't look like that anymore, as I added much more fake plants, and switched the garden net into a mosquito net everywhere.

 

[Beman]

Yeah, the test result was positive, I just meant that the consequences for the baby were negative.

So, Will it be okay if I take all the climbing things from the enclosure and put it into a bathtub and wash it (i've got no living plants, so all of them should not get destroyed in the process), then spray the entire enclosure intensively with liquid peroxide, and then with water?

I will also need to remove all of the soil and place down the paper.
There is still one thing. The enclosure background is indeed, a porous decoration made out of clay, foam and mortar.
Is there any possibility of saving it, instead of destroying it? like by using the hot steam?
If not, I will eventually remove it for the sake of baby's health, however in ideal world I'd still like to save it.

Here's the sculpture I'd prefer to keep in the background (The enclosure doesn't look like that anymore, as I added much more fake plants, and switched the garden net into a mosquito net everywhere.

Oh my... so your cage is made of wood? This is the cage right? Your not going to be able to clean that the way you need to... It is porous and can hold the peroxide. When we talk about porous vs safe to clean... Literally plastic and metal are the only things you want to put the peroxide on. Everything else can absorb the peroxide which is toxic to the cham.

So this would mean buying a new cage if yours is wood. You just will not be able to clean that the way you need to or the background.

 

[Barye]

It makes it much more complicated then.
I plan on taking the mosquito net panels, and building the new cage out of aluminum profiles.
As soon as I'll be possible of building the enclosure, I'll take out all of the artificial plants and branches from the old enclosure, and clean them in the bathtub with the peroxide or kilcox (I would like you to confirm which of those two would be better for killing coccidia on these)
As the new enclosure will be finished, I'll place a paper on the floor, and all the cleaned plants inside the enclosure. (as for now, the bottom of enclosure was filled with coconut fiber, which made it really hard for noticing the feces, that could finally lead to the appearance of coccidia.
As for the background, I thought about just getting a tropical picture, as the material will be most likely smooth furniture board.
After that, I will get rid off the old enclosure, and proceed further with the curing process.
Will it be all right?

 

[Beman]

It makes it much more complicated then.
I plan on taking the mosquito net panels, and building the new cage out of aluminum profiles.
As soon as I'll be possible of building the enclosure, I'll take out all of the artificial plants and branches from the old enclosure, and clean them in the bathtub with the peroxide or kilcox (I would like you to confirm which of those two would be better for killing coccidia on these)
As the new enclosure will be finished, I'll place a paper on the floor, and all the cleaned plants inside the enclosure. (as for now, the bottom of enclosure was filled with coconut fiber, which made it really hard for noticing the feces, that could finally lead to the appearance of coccidia.
As for the background, I thought about just getting a tropical picture, as the material will be most likely smooth furniture board.
After that, I will get rid off the old enclosure, and proceed further with the curing process.
Will it be all right?

I have never heard of kilcox... I have only ever heard of people using the 40 volume liquid peroxide on all non porous materials. You can not use this on anything other than things that are metal or plastic.

 

[Barye]

Hello again!

Today was the first day free of giving my cham a medicine ( I was told to give them to him three days in a row, and then, give him 5 days of break)
Lately, he became more dark-greyish, and his behavior became weird (I wasn't concerned about that with my 1st cham, but I want to make sure it's normal)
Jojo suddenly tries to grab something in the air, by reaching out with his arms, and when given a chance, he tries to hang on the insect net ceiling upside down, or generally, he favorizes quite weird places of his enclosure.
Today was also the 1st day I remember that he refused to eat anything on his own. He will need to wait at least few more days until his new enclosure will be built, and there are 4 more medicine-free days coming.

Here's the current picture of Jojo in his bright colors.

 

[scags]

I always thought coccidia was present in most reptiles- but as long as the animal was healthy, the coccidia doesn’t take over?
Is this not correct?
I worry about the dangers of the treatment for parasites more than the parasites themselves- at times anyhow.
Since chameleons are extremely sensitive to medications.

 

[kinyonga]

I always thought coccidia was present in most reptiles- but as long as the animal was healthy, the coccidia doesn’t take over?
Is this not correct?
I worry about the dangers of the treatment for parasites more than the parasites themselves- at times anyhow.
Since chameleons are extremely sensitive to medications.

I’ve heard something like that too..not supposed to be a big concern to get rid of it. I only had one test for it in all the years I’ve kept chameleons and it was easily treated.

I worry about the treatment sometimes too…but in most cases it’s something we seem to have to do….or do we?

You might like this article…
https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&id=7996794

 

[Beman]

I always thought coccidia was present in most reptiles- but as long as the animal was healthy, the coccidia doesn’t take over?
Is this not correct?
I worry about the dangers of the treatment for parasites more than the parasites themselves- at times anyhow.
Since chameleons are extremely sensitive to medications.

I’ve heard something like that too..not supposed to be a big concern to get rid of it. I only had one test for it in all the years I’ve kept chameleons and it was easily treated.

I worry about the treatment sometimes too…but in most cases it’s something we seem to have to do….or do we?

You might like this article…
https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&id=7996794

I was told by two vets that in chameleons it is dangerous because a stressful event can cause it to go into rapid production... and with how easily it is for a cham to get stressed out this is not ideal. Now you see it a lot with Beardies and with them if it is low numbers they tend to not treat.

I did deal with Coccidia... Cham was seemingly healthy although a little lower weight but otherwise eating and thriving. Shipped to me and within a week began declining massively. Got the fecal test done and he had a high load of coccidia oocysts present. He did not handle treatment and declined further... He did not make it. I think had he never been shipped to me he probably would have been fine although underweight for his age. He was in an environment he knew and then came to one he didn't. Not to mention the stress of shipping.

 

[Beman]

Hello again!

Today was the first day free of giving my cham a medicine ( I was told to give them to him three days in a row, and then, give him 5 days of break)
Lately, he became more dark-greyish, and his behavior became weird (I wasn't concerned about that with my 1st cham, but I want to make sure it's normal)
Jojo suddenly tries to grab something in the air, by reaching out with his arms, and when given a chance, he tries to hang on the insect net ceiling upside down, or generally, he favorizes quite weird places of his enclosure.
Today was also the 1st day I remember that he refused to eat anything on his own. He will need to wait at least few more days until his new enclosure will be built, and there are 4 more medicine-free days coming.

Here's the current picture of Jojo in his bright colors.

Keep trying to hand feed. They do not typically eat on the meds. He is showing his fired up colors there.. totally normal.
Is he doing the karate chop with the front hands? Where they hold it up?

 

[scags]

I’ve heard something like that too..not supposed to be a big concern to get rid of it. I only had one test for it in all the years I’ve kept chameleons and it was easily treated.

I worry about the treatment sometimes too…but in most cases it’s something we seem to have to do….or do we?

You might like this article…
https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&id=7996794

That article is really informative. Thanks!

I’ve heard something like that too..not supposed to be a big concern to get rid of it. I only had one test for it in all the years I’ve kept chameleons and it was easily treated.

I worry about the treatment sometimes too…but in most cases it’s something we seem to have to do….or do we?

You might like this article…
https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&id=7996794

Very interesting article. I didn’t know there were different species of coccidia.

Also I did know strong hygiene was one way to prevent coccidia from getting out of control, but I wonder how that’s possible in a bioactive enclosure?
I guess you could quarantine your animal in a sterile/easily cleaned enclosure until their infection numbers are lowered and then place into the bioactive enclosure once free and clear.

But then again, the stress on the animal could be detrimental.

I’ve gotten a few wild caughts over the years and spent ridiculous amounts of money on vet bills to try to save declining wc chams.
One thing I’ve learned in my experience is that there seems to be a point where the stress of medications and frequent vet visits becomes worse than the disease itself.
I’ve definitely learned that with wild caughts acclimation and low stress can be a life saver- and to gauge more accurately when they should be seen by a vet.

Of course not all chams are the same; and CB chams are generally much more tolerant of vet visits and medication administering.

Anyhow. Coccidia always freaks me out. I try not to think about it, since it’s incredibly prevalent, and it seems to be more of concern if the animal is showing signs of poor health- vs If they’re healthy.

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”I’ve gotten a few wild caughts over the years and spent ridiculous amounts of money on vet bills to try to save declining wc chams“…when I first started keeping chameleons over 35 years ago, they were all wild caught. So many of them came in on deaths doorstep.

You said…“One thing I’ve learned in my experience is that there seems to be a point where the stress of medications and frequent vet visits becomes worse than the disease itself.”…this is true IMHO too.

You said…“I’ve definitely learned that with wild caughts acclimation and low stress can be a life saver- and to gauge more accurately when they should be seen by a vet.“…some never acclimate even when they aren’t taken to a vet and are kept in as low a stress situation as is possible and seem to have no issues when they arrive. Some just decline until they die.

You said…”Of course not all chams are the same; and CB chams are generally much more tolerant of vet visits and medication administering.”…CB are definitely more tolerant of vet visits…but I don’t think it means they are more tolerant of medications.

 

[Barye]

Keep trying to hand feed. They do not typically eat on the meds. He is showing his fired up colors there.. totally normal.
Is he doing the karate chop with the front hands? Where they hold it up?

When he reaches out with his hands, he just stands on his two legs and rotates around with his arms without a purpose supposedly.
As for news, I collected fresh feces, they look like they were not fully digested-I could see at least mealworm's shell in there. (mealworms are not his usual feeder, but he refused to eat crickets and cockroaches lately)
Also, as he takes the medicines he is just constantly greyish-nearly black, and he refuses to eat anything.
However though, he's very thirsty, he drinks much more than ever. The time I collected his feces, I couldn't find anywhere the pee crystal part. So I suppose he can be somehow dehydrated, but could it be caused by the medicines?

 

[Barye]

When he reaches out with his hands, he just stands on his two legs and rotates around with his arms without a purpose supposedly.
As for news, I collected fresh feces, they look like they were not fully digested-I could see at least mealworm's shell in there. (mealworms are not his usual feeder, but he refused to eat crickets and cockroaches lately)
Also, as he takes the medicines he is just constantly greyish-nearly black, and he refuses to eat anything.
However though, he's very thirsty, he drinks much more than ever. The time I collected his feces, I couldn't find anywhere the pee crystal part. So I suppose he can be somehow dehydrated, but could it be caused by the medicines?

EDIT: I could also spot his tongue being yellow-white, and apparently he rubbed his eye on a branch, and soon after that his eye's shape was "deforming" (it was much larger and weird shaped)
My guess is that it could be a muscle move, but it looked horrifying, just like a mealworm sized thing being right under his skin.

 

[Beman]

When he reaches out with his hands, he just stands on his two legs and rotates around with his arms without a purpose supposedly.
As for news, I collected fresh feces, they look like they were not fully digested-I could see at least mealworm's shell in there. (mealworms are not his usual feeder, but he refused to eat crickets and cockroaches lately)
Also, as he takes the medicines he is just constantly greyish-nearly black, and he refuses to eat anything.
However though, he's very thirsty, he drinks much more than ever. The time I collected his feces, I couldn't find anywhere the pee crystal part. So I suppose he can be somehow dehydrated, but could it be caused by the medicines?

EDIT: I could also spot his tongue being yellow-white, and apparently he rubbed his eye on a branch, and soon after that his eye's shape was "deforming" (it was much larger and weird shaped)
My guess is that it could be a muscle move, but it looked horrifying, just like a mealworm sized thing being right under his skin.

Continue making sure he has access to water. Get superworms rather than mealworms. They are a better feeder. Keep offering the other feeders. BUT NOTE do not put these back into your bin if he does not eat them. You then end up cross contaminating your feeders that way. And you do not want to do that.

Eye thing you mention sounds like him cleaning his eye. Did it look like this

 

[Barye]

Yeah it looked exactly like this, god I was worried something has grown inside of it, thank you for confirming it's normal.
As goes for the water, yes, I will continue to bring him as much water as he needs as I did today.
I'm not sure if he's big enough for superworms yet (he only weighs around 40 gram and is about 2-3 months old, but I may try.

 

[Beman]

Yeah it looked exactly like this, god I was worried something has grown inside of it, thank you for confirming it's normal.
As goes for the water, yes, I will continue to bring him as much water as he needs as I did today.
I'm not sure if he's big enough for superworms yet (he only weighs around 40 gram and is about 2-3 months old, but I may try.

ohhh nevermind... Stick with the mealworms. I forgot how little yours was. So sorry I am in multiple threads today and got confused.

And baby will not eat 1/4 inch crickets either?

 

[Barye]

He surely is possible of doing so, as he was eating even larger ones, but it looks like he got bored with them.
I planned on buying new ones soon as the cockroaches are being eaten out (I feed my Leopard geckos with them too)
At this point, I just want him to feel better and eat healthy again. The new cage is under construction, and should be done in the next 2 days I suppose.

 

[Beman]

He surely is possible of doing so, as he was eating even larger ones, but it looks like he got bored with them.
I planned on buying new ones soon as the cockroaches are being eaten out (I feed my Leopard geckos with them too)
At this point, I just want him to feel better and eat healthy again. The new cage is under construction, and should be done in the next 2 days I suppose.

You do not want to put him into a new cage though until the coccidia treatment is done and you have at least 2 clean fecals afterwards spaced at least 2-4 weeks apart to ensure the parasite load is gone and he did not recontaminate himself.