Edema?

[puckarooo]

Details
species- veiled chameleon
Sex- female
Age- approx 1 year
Last (infertile) lay- Jan 27 2023
Feeding- 3 large Dubia roaches every other day and sometimes morio worms as a treat
Water- water fountain (controversial I know but it works perfectly with my cham)
Supplements- light calcium dust every feed, recently a small pinch of vit A to combat a vit A deficiency

Hey,
today I noticed my chameleon has been hanging upside down with a swollen neck. She usually loves her food but she has refused to eat. I even tried her with her favourite Morio worms which usually she sprints to me to eat but instead she’s been getting aggressive and running away from them. She’s really not herself. After doing research I suspect it’s edema as after her first clutch of infertile eggs, she developed a slight vitamin A deficiency so I increased her dosage ever so slightly. Before I’d gutload her insects with it, being careful as I know an OD from vitamin A is life threatening but after her clutch, I added a tiny pinch to the dusting calcium, once again still being careful with the dosage. I believe that may have caused this if it is edema as I may have accidentally over supplemented.

Do you know how I can help her in any way? I feel so bad for her as usually she’s very bright and confident but now she’s dark, has puffy eyes and is extremely docile which is odd as she has a massive personality.

If she does not show any improvement in 2 days, I will take her to the vet as he is a reptile specialist.
Thanks

(the pictures aren’t the best, I’ll try and get some better ones tomorrow)

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi. All vitamin A’s are not the same. There is proformed, which is from carotenes and is excreted by the body. However, it’s not clear if chameleons are able to utilize this form. They are known to be able to utilize Preformed vitamin A which is from retinols and will build up in the body, so we are very careful in using it. Vitamin D3 also can build up in the body, so we limit that one too. What are you giving your girl for her D3? How often is she getting it? Why do you think she was deficient in vitamin A? How long ago did she lay her eggs and how many did she lay? Can you post some pics of her enclosure, including lights?

 

[kinyonga]

Can you post a couple more photos so I can see all of her from the side please?

 

[puckarooo]

Hi. All vitamin A’s are not the same. There is proformed, which is from carotenes and is excreted by the body. However, it’s not clear if chameleons are able to utilize this form. They are known to be able to utilize Preformed vitamin A which is from retinols and will build up in the body, so we are very careful in using it. Vitamin D3 also can build up in the body, so we limit that one too. What are you giving your girl for her D3? How often is she getting it? Why do you think she was deficient in vitamin A? How long ago did she lay her eggs and how many did she lay? Can you post some pics of her enclosure, including lights?

Hey thanks for the reply, she last laid her eggs on January 27th 2023 and had 66 eggs. We had taken her to a reptile vet as she had very sunken yet puffy eyes and seemed quite unwell and after tests, he said she had a vitamin A deficiency but was easily treatable. I’ll link a picture of the vitamin A I use, I believe it from the one you mentioned, carotene’s as it has something to do with carrots haha D3 wise, her UVB emits D3 and I have never given her actual D3 supplements, is this something you’d recommend I do?

 

[puckarooo]

Can you post a couple more photos so I can see all of her from the side please?

She looks massive in some of the photos as she despises my phone (as seen in the last photo) and blows herself up with air every time she sees it

 

[Beman]

Hey there based on those supplements. I think you are overdosing her on vitamin A. Also I see your supplements have bee pollen in them. Some chams develop edema with bee pollen in the supplements.

I would put her on a plain calcium without D3 for all feedings and then get a multivitamin like Repashy Calcium Plus LoD for your multivitamin to give her 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th. These do not have bee pollen in them. The Repashy caclium plus LoD has water soluble vitamins and fat soluble vitamins like D3 and A. This is why we only use it 2 times a month.

Also it looks like she is holding eggs. You can see lumps at the back of her abdomen. 66 eggs is far too many for a female. They can not maintain having clutches that large. @MissSkittles can review your husbandry for her. We recommend lower basking temps along with food intake to reduce clutch size. By doing this they have much longer life spans and less likely to suffer from egg binding.

 

[MissSkittles]

So yes, 66 eggs is wayyy too many eggs. The more eggs they lay, the chances of having problems passing them all (like egg binding) increases. Plus, laying eggs no matter how many, shortens the lives of our sweet ladies. There is a way to help all of this though, thru keeping the basking temp no higher than 80F and reduced feedings. I feed my girls (all of my chameleons actually) 3-4 feeders, 3 days a week plus the occasional treat. I primarily feed nutritious staple feeders such as roaches, crickets, silkworms, etc and leave the treat feeders (superworms, hornworms, wax worms) as the treats. Doing this has not only helped keep all of my chameleons at healthy weights, but has greatly reduced the egg production of my girls. I have 2 veiled girls that are each now 4 years old. One lays once a year and the other hasn’t laid any eggs in exactly 3 years. My panther girl is a bit over 1 1/2 and has never laid any eggs. I do keep a lay bin available at all times for all of them, so that I don’t have to guess when they need it. Here’s a great article on the basis of the reduced egg production/laying regimen. http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/2007/12/keeping-female-veiled.html
For supplements, the best and easiest regimen to follow is the one @Beman has given you. I also make sure to keep my feeder insects well fed and as healthy as possible with a variety of fresh greens, veggies a little fruit and just to round things out, a small amount of Repashy Bug Burger. Healthy bugs are more nutritious for your chameleon.
I had asked to see your enclosure, as that usually conveys a lot of info and saves asking a million questions back and forth. I can’t determine what type of uvb bulb you have, but I suspect it may be a mercury vapor bulb. The other kind of screw in type is a cfl. We don’t like to use the mercury vapor as their uvb output is not stable or consistent and you really need a solarmeter to monitor that your uvb levels are where they should be. The other type of screw in uvb bulb is not able to provide adequate levels any farther away than 2-3”. These reasons are why the standard is a linear T5HO fixture with either ReptiSun 5.0 or Arcadia 6%. The output is consistent and then your basking area should be 8-9” away from the light and your chameleon has a nice gradient to choose.
I do love that you have all love plants. She has areas to hide and take shade in, which is important. I would advise switching out the jade plant on the right with a pothos. Pothos are one of the very best plants for chams, and our ladies seem to find them especially tasty. Your weeping fig tree and other will do much better if you add some sort of plant grow light. I like and use Sansi. The boxy 70w will grow just about anything, but the 36w screw in in nice if you don’t have plants with high light needs like hibiscus. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TKKG8Q3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BRKG7X1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I can’t tell, but it looks like you may have some sort of substrate on the floor of your enclosure. Unless it’s fully bioactive with a good drainage system and clean up crew of springtails and isopods, a bare floor is best and most hygienic.
What is the size of your enclosure? The standard for adult veileds and panthers is a 2x2x4’ enclosure or equivalent. There are some enclosures that aren’t quite that tall, but make up for it in additional width and those are ok.
Most definitely keep a close eye on your pretty girl. Any signs that she isn’t feeling well and I suggest getting her in to the soonest vet appointment. She is pretty lumpy and big still and there’s the fear that she may have retained eggs, which can be fatal. Chameleons hide that anything is wrong until it’s almost too late, so be observant and don’t delay if you notice anything off. Eyes closed during the day, not basking, lethargy, hanging out at the bottom of the enclosure, appetite loss or reduction, etc.
I’m very glad to have you and your sweet pretty girl here and hope I’ve been of some help.

 

[kinyonga]

@Beman said…”Also it looks like she is holding eggs. You can see lumps at the back of her abdomen”…I think this is very likely. she is then, she likely will need to be spayed before she gets too weak to have it done. A good chameleon vet should be able to do an X-ray to see if there are eggs still inside her.

Females that produce large clutches of eggs usually end up with follicular stasis and dystopia (egg binding) unless they are put on the “diet“ and temperature control we talk about on here so often.

 

[puckarooo]

Thanks so much everyone for the advice. I’ll keep her off that vit A and order those multivitamins suggested.

I always thought it looked like she was still retaining eggs but I brushed it off as she had already laid so didn’t think she’d do that. She seems a lot brighter today and has eaten. She’s currently basking at the moment and seems very content however it does worry me that she may still have eggs inside of her. Would you suggest I book an appointment now or wait for any symptoms to reappear before taking her to the vet? I just don’t want to add any extra stress onto her if i don’t have to.

 

[puckarooo]

So yes, 66 eggs is wayyy too many eggs. The more eggs they lay, the chances of having problems passing them all (like egg binding) increases. Plus, laying eggs no matter how many, shortens the lives of our sweet ladies. There is a way to help all of this though, thru keeping the basking temp no higher than 80F and reduced feedings. I feed my girls (all of my chameleons actually) 3-4 feeders, 3 days a week plus the occasional treat. I primarily feed nutritious staple feeders such as roaches, crickets, silkworms, etc and leave the treat feeders (superworms, hornworms, wax worms) as the treats. Doing this has not only helped keep all of my chameleons at healthy weights, but has greatly reduced the egg production of my girls. I have 2 veiled girls that are each now 4 years old. One lays once a year and the other hasn’t laid any eggs in exactly 3 years. My panther girl is a bit over 1 1/2 and has never laid any eggs. I do keep a lay bin available at all times for all of them, so that I don’t have to guess when they need it. Here’s a great article on the basis of the reduced egg production/laying regimen. http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/2007/12/keeping-female-veiled.html
For supplements, the best and easiest regimen to follow is the one @Beman has given you. I also make sure to keep my feeder insects well fed and as healthy as possible with a variety of fresh greens, veggies a little fruit and just to round things out, a small amount of Repashy Bug Burger. Healthy bugs are more nutritious for your chameleon.
I had asked to see your enclosure, as that usually conveys a lot of info and saves asking a million questions back and forth. I can’t determine what type of uvb bulb you have, but I suspect it may be a mercury vapor bulb. The other kind of screw in type is a cfl. We don’t like to use the mercury vapor as their uvb output is not stable or consistent and you really need a solarmeter to monitor that your uvb levels are where they should be. The other type of screw in uvb bulb is not able to provide adequate levels any farther away than 2-3”. These reasons are why the standard is a linear T5HO fixture with either ReptiSun 5.0 or Arcadia 6%. The output is consistent and then your basking area should be 8-9” away from the light and your chameleon has a nice gradient to choose.
I do love that you have all love plants. She has areas to hide and take shade in, which is important. I would advise switching out the jade plant on the right with a pothos. Pothos are one of the very best plants for chams, and our ladies seem to find them especially tasty. Your weeping fig tree and other will do much better if you add some sort of plant grow light. I like and use Sansi. The boxy 70w will grow just about anything, but the 36w screw in in nice if you don’t have plants with high light needs like hibiscus. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TKKG8Q3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BRKG7X1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I can’t tell, but it looks like you may have some sort of substrate on the floor of your enclosure. Unless it’s fully bioactive with a good drainage system and clean up crew of springtails and isopods, a bare floor is best and most hygienic.
What is the size of your enclosure? The standard for adult veileds and panthers is a 2x2x4’ enclosure or equivalent. There are some enclosures that aren’t quite that tall, but make up for it in additional width and those are ok.
Most definitely keep a close eye on your pretty girl. Any signs that she isn’t feeling well and I suggest getting her in to the soonest vet appointment. She is pretty lumpy and big still and there’s the fear that she may have retained eggs, which can be fatal. Chameleons hide that anything is wrong until it’s almost too late, so be observant and don’t delay if you notice anything off. Eyes closed during the day, not basking, lethargy, hanging out at the bottom of the enclosure, appetite loss or reduction, etc.
I’m very glad to have you and your sweet pretty girl here and hope I’ve been of some help.

To answer your flooring question, yes her substrate is bioactive and has a “clean up crew” which keeps it fresh and clean. Her vivarium is 91x45x90cm. I’m not good with UVB bulbs and stuff like that so I’ll attach a picture of it. Her basking lamp is at a constant of 70F but would you recommend I lower it still as I’m gonna make sure her next clutch isn’t as big. You’ve been loads of help so thank you so much

 

[Beman]

To answer your flooring question, yes her substrate is bioactive and has a “clean up crew” which keeps it fresh and clean. Her vivarium is 91x45x90cm. I’m not good with UVB bulbs and stuff like that so I’ll attach a picture of it. Her basking lamp is at a constant of 70F but would you recommend I lower it still as I’m gonna make sure her next clutch isn’t as big. You’ve been loads of help so thank you so much

Hi hun you want to upgrade your UVB lighting system. Right now you are using a T8 fixture and bulb. It is recommended to use a T5HO fixture with a 6% or 5.0 bulb for it. With this you would center it accross the cage top and have the basking branches 8-9 inches below. The T8 will not push enough uvb down far enough for her. This can create issues with MBD and for females can be more dangerous due to egg laying. This is why she is climbing as high as possible to get near the fixture. She is trying to get high enough to get the UVB she needs.

How are you testing your temps? If you do not have a temp gauge with a probe tied in right below the basking fixture on the branch your not getting accurate temps.

 

[puckarooo]

Hi hun you want to upgrade your UVB lighting system. Right now you are using a T8 fixture and bulb. It is recommended to use a T5HO fixture with a 6% or 5.0 bulb for it. With this you would center it accross the cage top and have the basking branches 8-9 inches below. The T8 will not push enough uvb down far enough for her. This can create issues with MBD and for females can be more dangerous due to egg laying. This is why she is climbing as high as possible to get near the fixture. She is trying to get high enough to get the UVB she needs.

How are you testing your temps? If you do not have a temp gauge with a probe tied in right below the basking fixture on the branch your not getting accurate temps.

New UVB light added to the shopping list the thermostat has a probe which is below her lamp so I get the reading that way, I also have a digital thermometer which is also a humidity reader on top of her food bowl (which Gloria likes to use as a climbing toy instead) and shows pretty much the same reading.

 

[Beman]

New UVB light added to the shopping list the thermostat has a probe which is below her lamp so I get the reading that way, I also have a digital thermometer which is also a humidity reader on top of her food bowl (which Gloria likes to use as a climbing toy instead) and shows pretty much the same reading.

What wattage bulb are you using for the heat fixture and how far away is the branch where you have the probe?

 

[puckarooo]

What wattage bulb are you using for the heat fixture and how far away is the branch where you have the probe?

It’s 100w and the probe is actually on the wall, next to the plant she basks in which is directly under the lamp

 

[Beman]

It’s 100w and the probe is actually on the wall, next to the plant she basks in which is directly under the lamp

Ok so the probe you want to hook in on the branch below the fixture. This is the only way to get an accurate temp. You want to move the fixture over branches rather than the plant. So adding in horrizontal branches 9 inches down from the screen top is what we normally recommend for basking and UVB. 100 watt is going to produce much hotter basking temps than 70. We do not typically recommend them because they can be too hot.

 

[kinyonga]

@puckarooo said…”Would you suggest I book an appointment now or wait for any symptoms to reappear before taking her to the vet?”…the problem is that if you wait, they can go down hill really fast and you might not be able to save her.