Eye Black/Kidney Failure/Elevated Uric Acid
- Thread starter M21
- Start date
M21
Member
Thank you! I appreciate that. I'll try my best to keep everyone updated.
M21
Member
Here is a photo from today. I let him bask in the sun for awhile. He was drinking a lot while outside. He looks healthy at times but is still showing lethargy and and dangling his arms. I'll be glad when his medicines run out. I'm hoping that he'll improve more once he's off his meds. Still hoping he continues to survive.
M21
Member
I have a question for some of the experts out there. I have been reading and reading about what could have potentially caused the elevated uric acid levels in Yoda ie Gout. My vet didn't mention any known causes, however I came across numerous articles and posts on here and other websites about gout potentially being caused by excessive amounts of D3 and also by dehydration. I used Reptivite with D3 and Repcal calcium with and without D3. When Yoda was a baby, I dusted with calcium every feeding, calcium with D3 two or three times a week using Reptivite with D3 once a week alone. As an adult, I dust with calcium almost every feeding and use Reptivite with D3 twice a month.
I also have been reading a lot about Vitamin A. I am starting to wonder if Yoda is showing signs of a vitamin A deficiency hypovitaminosis A. in conjunction with excessive vitamin D3 hypervitaminosis D3. I know his uric acid levels are elevated from the blood work the vet did, and I'm wondering if it could be from excessive D3. His continuing eye problems, shakiness, inability to grip and odd skin formation are making me wonder if he is vitamin A deficient. I wish the vet would have mentioned those things. The fact that she didn't makes me question whether she was aware that his symptoms can be caused from over/under supplementation of those vitamins. That may not be the case at all, and the medications she gave me may be the best for the symptoms he's displaying. I'm just really frustrated because he does not seem to be getting better. He is not doing well today at all. I think he's almost to the point I don't have much to lose by trying something else.
So my question is whether or not anyone else out there has experienced vitamin over or under supplementation using Reptivite or believes that the balance between D3 and preformed vitamin A could be off causing too much of one but not enough of the other? If I could do it all over, I would choose Reptivite without D3 and provide the D3 only using Repcal calcium with D3 backing it off to once a month as an adult and providing more actual sunlight in conjunction with the Reptisun 5.0 UVB. As I stated earlier, I started using Reptivite because the last vet thought that my previous chameleon Rango may have had health issues because I used Herptivite with beta-carotene instead of preformed vitamin A as found in Reptivite. I know plenty of breeders have used Herptivite with no issues and too much vitamin A can be dangerous. That's the reason I went with Herptivite the first time around.
I don't know if this has anything to do with Yoda's symptoms or not. I have thought about providing a pin drop of Vitamin A (retinyl palmitate) for 3-4 days. I know some people use Cod Liver Oil, but I would be afraid to use that since it contains vitamin D as well. I also thought about trying Zoo Med Repti Turtle Eye Drops that contain vitamin A for his eye issue. Does anyone have an opinion on this? The only reason I'm even considering these other treatments is because he is still not improving and may be getting worse (definitely his eye is). I've been using the pain relieving eye drops again but not the antibiotic eyes drops. I'm not sure if the antibiotics should be used beyond the 7-8 days the vet recommended.
I'm really hoping some experts on here weigh in. If there are any vets on here that are knowledgeable in dealing with chameleons, I would really appreciate your advice. I have about three days of meds (3 days gout med and 3 antibiotic injections/72 hours in-between injections) left to give and then I will schedule another vet appointment. In his current condition, I don't think the stress of taking him to the vet before he finishes the prescribed medications would be worth it. I am so sick of poor Yoda being sick. This is consuming me. I've had the last four days off from work and all I've done is monitor him, pick up supplies and feeders and move him into the sun in his smaller encloser. Today I had to keep him inside in his smaller encloser because the temperatures weren't warm enough. He still gets a lot more sunlight downstairs in front of the windows. Unfortunately there isn't enough room to accommodate his large encloser there permanently.
I also have been reading a lot about Vitamin A. I am starting to wonder if Yoda is showing signs of a vitamin A deficiency hypovitaminosis A. in conjunction with excessive vitamin D3 hypervitaminosis D3. I know his uric acid levels are elevated from the blood work the vet did, and I'm wondering if it could be from excessive D3. His continuing eye problems, shakiness, inability to grip and odd skin formation are making me wonder if he is vitamin A deficient. I wish the vet would have mentioned those things. The fact that she didn't makes me question whether she was aware that his symptoms can be caused from over/under supplementation of those vitamins. That may not be the case at all, and the medications she gave me may be the best for the symptoms he's displaying. I'm just really frustrated because he does not seem to be getting better. He is not doing well today at all. I think he's almost to the point I don't have much to lose by trying something else.
So my question is whether or not anyone else out there has experienced vitamin over or under supplementation using Reptivite or believes that the balance between D3 and preformed vitamin A could be off causing too much of one but not enough of the other? If I could do it all over, I would choose Reptivite without D3 and provide the D3 only using Repcal calcium with D3 backing it off to once a month as an adult and providing more actual sunlight in conjunction with the Reptisun 5.0 UVB. As I stated earlier, I started using Reptivite because the last vet thought that my previous chameleon Rango may have had health issues because I used Herptivite with beta-carotene instead of preformed vitamin A as found in Reptivite. I know plenty of breeders have used Herptivite with no issues and too much vitamin A can be dangerous. That's the reason I went with Herptivite the first time around.
I don't know if this has anything to do with Yoda's symptoms or not. I have thought about providing a pin drop of Vitamin A (retinyl palmitate) for 3-4 days. I know some people use Cod Liver Oil, but I would be afraid to use that since it contains vitamin D as well. I also thought about trying Zoo Med Repti Turtle Eye Drops that contain vitamin A for his eye issue. Does anyone have an opinion on this? The only reason I'm even considering these other treatments is because he is still not improving and may be getting worse (definitely his eye is). I've been using the pain relieving eye drops again but not the antibiotic eyes drops. I'm not sure if the antibiotics should be used beyond the 7-8 days the vet recommended.
I'm really hoping some experts on here weigh in. If there are any vets on here that are knowledgeable in dealing with chameleons, I would really appreciate your advice. I have about three days of meds (3 days gout med and 3 antibiotic injections/72 hours in-between injections) left to give and then I will schedule another vet appointment. In his current condition, I don't think the stress of taking him to the vet before he finishes the prescribed medications would be worth it. I am so sick of poor Yoda being sick. This is consuming me. I've had the last four days off from work and all I've done is monitor him, pick up supplies and feeders and move him into the sun in his smaller encloser. Today I had to keep him inside in his smaller encloser because the temperatures weren't warm enough. He still gets a lot more sunlight downstairs in front of the windows. Unfortunately there isn't enough room to accommodate his large encloser there permanently.
KLowery88
Avid Member
When my vet and I discussed treatment of my rescue chameleon with gout, he said success of gout treatment depends a lot on the underlying reason for the gout. If the gout is being caused by kidney issues, you can really only hold the gout at bay and slow, not stop, kidney decline.
Vitamin A and Vitamin D3 do have a close relationship and can interfere with each other. Too much vit A can cause MBD like symptoms as it blocks the body from processing D3. I'll attach an article on vit A that gave me a better understanding of it, and later tonight once I'm home, I'll find my chapter of Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery on gout.
I'm sorry you're going through this, and I understand the frustration of wanting to get them better and not being able to.
Vitamin A and Vitamin D3 do have a close relationship and can interfere with each other. Too much vit A can cause MBD like symptoms as it blocks the body from processing D3. I'll attach an article on vit A that gave me a better understanding of it, and later tonight once I'm home, I'll find my chapter of Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery on gout.
I'm sorry you're going through this, and I understand the frustration of wanting to get them better and not being able to.
JaxyGirl
Avid Member
@M21 I absolutely agree with you. Vitamin A is a huge controvercy. How much to provide and in which form. I've also done a lot of research on vitamin A deficiency. It is hypothesized that chams can't convert the Beta Carotene (Proformed) form of Vitamin A from vegetable and plant matter into usable Preformed Vitamin A that is found in meat, fish and poultry. https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminA-Consumer/.
Many wild chams will eat other lizards, birds and small mammals which contain natural Preformed Vitamin A. Captive Chamelions don't get these types of foods. Apparently there was a controversial paper written in the 1990's that chams shouldn't be given Preformed Vitamin A but after further research these findings were proven to be false. However, this belief has continued to the present day and owners are completely terrified of giving their chams Preformed vitamin A and their chams are suffering because of past misinformation. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=17+1796&aid=3027
The problem is how much Preformed vitamin A does a Cham need in order to prevent disease? Too much D3 can be toxic just like too much Vitamin A can be toxic or too much of any vitamin for that matter...even to humans. I honestly think that D3 is over supplemented.,UVB lighting is so good now days (If Properly Replaced Within Six Months) that chams don't need to be supplemented with as much Vitamin D3. But, that's just my opinion... I'm not saying chameleons shouldn't get any D3.
There are other findings where Vitamin A deficient female chams pass this deficiency to their offspring. Developing babies get vitamin A in the yolk which after hatching is stored in the liver. This vitamin A supply is important for the first 3-6 mos of growth. As the baby grows and forages in the wild they will replenish vitamin A from the food that they eat. Unfortunately, most chams born in captivity don't get this opportunity and this leads to Eye problems, URI's, MBD symptoms and other sicknesses. It is up to the owner to provide the types of foods that contain preformed Vitamin A and unfortunately the majority of owners don't know how. There really isn't a lot of information on the subject of the dietary needs of captive chameleons. So it just leaves us floundering and frustrated trying to find solutions of why our Cham is sick. Veterinarians seem just as frustrated and many times chams that don't need antibiotics are put on one because there isn't any other solution. This may make the Cham sicker by causing kidney problems, digestive problems etc. When in fact a vitamin deficiency may be the primary source of the sickness. There is so much information and research out there regarding the proper care and dietary needs of Iguanas, snakes, chickens, cats dogs, fish etc. Why isn't that type of information available for the captive chameleon. It just baffles me???
Even different brands of vitamins and supplements that we give our chams have varying amounts of vitamins and types and forms of vitamins in them. It's a huge source of frustration deciding which suppliment to use and how much??
I believe many captive female chams that pet store babies come from are very vitamin deficient to begin with. Who really knows where these babies come from and what type of environment the females and babies were raised in? It reminds me of Puppy Mills. In my opinion the babies are sold too young and are so vitamin deficient including Vitamin A that most don't survive the first year. It's really sad because it sets new owners up for failure and a lot of times it's not their fault. That's also my opinion because there really isn't any proof one way or the other except that we see a lot of sick babies here on the forums.
I also think one of the contributing factors of sickness in adult chams over one year old is due to vitamin deficiencies including Preformed vitamin A. How much is needed is the question?
Many wild chams will eat other lizards, birds and small mammals which contain natural Preformed Vitamin A. Captive Chamelions don't get these types of foods. Apparently there was a controversial paper written in the 1990's that chams shouldn't be given Preformed Vitamin A but after further research these findings were proven to be false. However, this belief has continued to the present day and owners are completely terrified of giving their chams Preformed vitamin A and their chams are suffering because of past misinformation. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=17+1796&aid=3027
The problem is how much Preformed vitamin A does a Cham need in order to prevent disease? Too much D3 can be toxic just like too much Vitamin A can be toxic or too much of any vitamin for that matter...even to humans. I honestly think that D3 is over supplemented.,UVB lighting is so good now days (If Properly Replaced Within Six Months) that chams don't need to be supplemented with as much Vitamin D3. But, that's just my opinion... I'm not saying chameleons shouldn't get any D3.
There are other findings where Vitamin A deficient female chams pass this deficiency to their offspring. Developing babies get vitamin A in the yolk which after hatching is stored in the liver. This vitamin A supply is important for the first 3-6 mos of growth. As the baby grows and forages in the wild they will replenish vitamin A from the food that they eat. Unfortunately, most chams born in captivity don't get this opportunity and this leads to Eye problems, URI's, MBD symptoms and other sicknesses. It is up to the owner to provide the types of foods that contain preformed Vitamin A and unfortunately the majority of owners don't know how. There really isn't a lot of information on the subject of the dietary needs of captive chameleons. So it just leaves us floundering and frustrated trying to find solutions of why our Cham is sick. Veterinarians seem just as frustrated and many times chams that don't need antibiotics are put on one because there isn't any other solution. This may make the Cham sicker by causing kidney problems, digestive problems etc. When in fact a vitamin deficiency may be the primary source of the sickness. There is so much information and research out there regarding the proper care and dietary needs of Iguanas, snakes, chickens, cats dogs, fish etc. Why isn't that type of information available for the captive chameleon. It just baffles me???
Even different brands of vitamins and supplements that we give our chams have varying amounts of vitamins and types and forms of vitamins in them. It's a huge source of frustration deciding which suppliment to use and how much??
I believe many captive female chams that pet store babies come from are very vitamin deficient to begin with. Who really knows where these babies come from and what type of environment the females and babies were raised in? It reminds me of Puppy Mills. In my opinion the babies are sold too young and are so vitamin deficient including Vitamin A that most don't survive the first year. It's really sad because it sets new owners up for failure and a lot of times it's not their fault. That's also my opinion because there really isn't any proof one way or the other except that we see a lot of sick babies here on the forums.
I also think one of the contributing factors of sickness in adult chams over one year old is due to vitamin deficiencies including Preformed vitamin A. How much is needed is the question?
M21
Member
Unfortunately I've heard the same regarding kidney issues. I feel like the meds I'm giving are just a temporary bandaid and slightly prolonging the inevitable. I appreciate your kind words and article.
M21
Member
That is definitely the question. I appreciate your input regarding this topic. This information is exactly in line with everything else I've been reading. Although I have no way of knowing for sure whether or not Yoda received too much D3, I plan on cutting back the amount for any future chameleons I may own. I've followed the amounts that so many others have had success with, but I can't help wondering if that had any potential impact on Yoda's kidney issues. As I stated earlier, I also plan on using a non D3 containing multivitamin and using separate calcium with D3 to have more control on individual vitamins/supplements if I decide to get another chameleon in the future.
OldChamKeeper
Chameleon Enthusiast
I was directed to this post. Not sure if I wanted to comment but sometimes people come drag me out of my cave.
1 - You've done a great job.
2- I would suggest you ask for your Vet for another round of meds, from my experience this animals take a damn long time to heal and once you got them healing don't ease up on the meds. Even My herp vet tends to have me keep a cham on a 20+ day round of meds. I had one Quad on meds for a year to hold back a bone infection as an example.
3- I use straight calcium 4 days a week. Gut load everything daily. Use a multivitamin once a month. Calcium with Medium D3 twice a month. Just sharing my supplementation since you have a huge debate raging on the thread and I'm too grouchy to go into details.
4- Defecation is not always a stress reaction. Period. Ever have the urge to pee when your hand gets put in some running water? It's kinda like that, don't over think it. When I soak my Parson twice a week I can always count on a fresh turd if I need a fecal sample. Why? Well he won't tell me why but I think he likes to shit in the shower, however I can say he is not stressed in the least.
5- soaking a dehydrated animal is intended to provide them easy access to water, covering their feet is more than enough if the animal is righteously thirsty. No need to make them look for a life preserver.
To me, from what you've described and shown, I'd lay money on a long term nutritional issue rearing it's head. Good news is it looks like you have a fighting chance.
Always take what is said here with a grain of salt. I've seen good info and bad info. Same with vets.....
Good luck.
1 - You've done a great job.
2- I would suggest you ask for your Vet for another round of meds, from my experience this animals take a damn long time to heal and once you got them healing don't ease up on the meds. Even My herp vet tends to have me keep a cham on a 20+ day round of meds. I had one Quad on meds for a year to hold back a bone infection as an example.
3- I use straight calcium 4 days a week. Gut load everything daily. Use a multivitamin once a month. Calcium with Medium D3 twice a month. Just sharing my supplementation since you have a huge debate raging on the thread and I'm too grouchy to go into details.
4- Defecation is not always a stress reaction. Period. Ever have the urge to pee when your hand gets put in some running water? It's kinda like that, don't over think it. When I soak my Parson twice a week I can always count on a fresh turd if I need a fecal sample. Why? Well he won't tell me why but I think he likes to shit in the shower, however I can say he is not stressed in the least.
5- soaking a dehydrated animal is intended to provide them easy access to water, covering their feet is more than enough if the animal is righteously thirsty. No need to make them look for a life preserver.
To me, from what you've described and shown, I'd lay money on a long term nutritional issue rearing it's head. Good news is it looks like you have a fighting chance.
Always take what is said here with a grain of salt. I've seen good info and bad info. Same with vets.....
Good luck.
M21
Member
Thanks for the new article on gout. I use Repashy Superfood Bug Burger.
M21
Member
I agree that it is most likely a nutritional issue. I just wish I knew exactly what has been off. ON THE BRIGHT SIDE YODA IS DOING THE BEST TODAY THAT HE"S DONE SINCE I STARTED TREATING HIM! I've said over and over that I don't like to get overly optimistic because he can really exhibit a huge change for better or worse day to day. I decided yesterday to go ahead and give him a tiny tiny drop of preformed vitamin A with his gout medication. Everything looks better today! His eye is better. He's drinking and eating a variety of insects and his grip and movement is much much better than yesterday. I will probably give him a tiny amount of Vitamin A for 2-3 days with his other meds and monitor him closely. I scheduled a vet appointment for next Friday. I'm hoping he will continue to show improvement. I may go ahead and soak him today. I haven't seen him defecate for about a week now.
M21
Member
Okay I will definitely bring it up. I don't want to overdue it on the vitamin A. I'm sure the vet will know better than I on whether or not to give a vitamin shot.
OldChamKeeper
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ease up on the vit doses. Think three a week.
In my first post I mentioned I dust four times a week. I don't put anything on the food items three days, why? It gives the animal a break from powdered items is why and they dont have to have every food item covered in it to stay healthy. Over supplementation is a huge issue in the hobby.
When a Parson needs a little boost it tends to be Vit B1. Do I give it three times a week? No, at least in my unique case he gets a dose on a roach about every two months. I know you're happy to see him doing better but go easy on the Vit A even if you think it is the main thing helping him. It's a balancing act.
Back to my cave
In my first post I mentioned I dust four times a week. I don't put anything on the food items three days, why? It gives the animal a break from powdered items is why and they dont have to have every food item covered in it to stay healthy. Over supplementation is a huge issue in the hobby.
When a Parson needs a little boost it tends to be Vit B1. Do I give it three times a week? No, at least in my unique case he gets a dose on a roach about every two months. I know you're happy to see him doing better but go easy on the Vit A even if you think it is the main thing helping him. It's a balancing act.
Back to my cave
M21
Member
Okay thanks for the advice. I am in agreement about over supplementing. Going forward I plan to follow your advice on backing off some on supplementation. I have been very hesitant about providing any additional vitamin A. I decided to do it as a last resort because he was to the point if he got any worse it would be death. I'm literally only using a drop about the size of pen point added to his Allopurinol. I won't do it for more than three days. I have not been supplementing with anything else during his treatment. If he continues to improve I may do a light calcium only dusting once next week. I'm staying away from D3 for at least a month if not more.
JaxyGirl
Avid Member
Glad Yoda is feeling a little better! Keeping my fingers crossed for you two!! He's such a good looking guy and he looks so sweet.
I agree with @OldChamKeeper that supplementing is definitely a balancing act.
A little vitamin A goes a long way. It sounds like what you're doing is helping him. I would be careful of stopping D3 completely and make sure that your UVB bulb is up to date. I would definitely ask for your vets opinion. It sounds like they really want to help Yoda
M21
Member
Glad Yoda is feeling a little better! Keeping my fingers crossed for you two!! He's such a good looking guy and he looks so sweet.
I agree with @OldChamKeeper that supplementing is definitely a balancing act.
A little vitamin A goes a long way. It sounds like what you're doing is helping him. I would be careful of stopping D3 completely and make sure that your UVB bulb is up to date. I would definitely ask for your vets opinion. It sounds like they really want to help Yoda
Hi thanks for the reply. I'm not planning on stopping the D3 all together. I just want to give him a month off from it (want to ensure he wasn't possibly over supplemented with D3 causing the elevated uric acid. I change my UVB bulb out every five to six months and just changed it within the last couple weeks. I've been allowing him to sun daily by placing him in the smaller encloser in front of our large window facing Southeast. I will ask my vet what she recommends going forward this next Friday when I take him in.
I have more good news as well! Yoda is looking good today! He had a large bowel movement with no bath. He has been alert and showing improved grip, leg/arm movement, no dangling, standing tall using his arms/legs and decreased shakiness. I can't help but think the vitamin A is helping. I've been treating him over two weeks with the other meds with no real improvement. I may give him one more tiny dose of vitamin A but no more until I see the vet. His eye has been showing improvement as well. He has kept it open almost the entire day!
Here is a picture from today. That's his left eye wide open like it's been the entire day!
