Follicular Stasis....poor baby

[Twitch6123]

Hi all,

So happy to have found this forum!!

Unfortunately my Godzilla has been diagnosed with follicular stasis. I brought her in for a routine checkup after learning she is a she and is nearing maturity(8-9mos) plus was showing signs of being gravid.

She seems to be acting normal since our visit on Friday before the weekend. She is eating a few roaches each day, going to the bathroom regularly, moving around the cage often and is maintaining good strength. I even brought her out to sun on my balcony for a bit too.

I had removed the lay bin I made despite catching her waking around the bottom of the cage because she's so far away from laying eggs, it's just taking up space and is becoming a good place for the feeders to hide. Also the Vet said she isn't close to being ready at this time.

I'm giving her liquid calcium the Vet prescribed first thing every morning then feeding. She seems to be responding well but as we know, time will tell to see if it helps with development of her follicles.

In hindsight I wish I had done more research on male and female chameleons prior to purchasing. While I certainly am responsible for Godzilla's wellbeing and I truly hope she makes it through this, I have concerns over the worst case scenario - surgery. The cost is a huge factor and I cannot allocate more than $250 towards any potential emergency surgery. Secondly, research I've done on this condition has shown that the average lifespan post-surgery is very low.

I'd like to see if anyone has had similar experience and could offer their story and how they handled it. I really hope the liquid calcium and time helps her but need to be prepared for the worst case now. I'm also curious if there are Chameleon Rescues or local veterinary practices local to Los Angeles that may be affiliated with a school whom offers low cost surgical options, if those even exist??

 

[Eric Adrignola]

What was the reason that she was diagnosed? If she isn'tready to lay the eggs, and has not even attempted to lay the eggs, why do they think there's something wrong?

If she's been on the ground, it's probably not far from when she needs to lay eggs. they don't take long to go from being NOT gravid to having to actually lay eggs. It happens quickly.

I'd put the lay bin in the cage, make sure it's moist, and give her plenty of cover.

Why did they think there's something wrong with her?

 

[junglefries]

Eric is right. If she is walking on the ground, she is within a week of a laying.

 

[carol5208]

From what I understand they can tell from the xrays if the eggs are properly formed or not and she cannot lay those type of eggs. Please talk to Jannb, a member on here. I am pretty sure this is what she dealt with. They had to be surgically removed on her chameleon and I believe that is usually the case unfortunately.

 

[Twitch6123]

That's correct, X-rays revealed the eggs are not developed. I've been giving her liquid calcium since Friday and am hoping it had a positive effect. Further X-rays will only tell if things are progressing for the better.

 

[jannb]

Welcome to the forums and I am very sorry to hear about your little girl. I am not a vet but I do have very experienced vets that help me with my chameleons. Is your vet experienced in chameleons? If not I would highly recommend finding a good reptile vet with chameleon experience. My girl Lottie developed follicles and they had to be surgically removed right away. I can link you to my thread about it below. I'm going to ask a vet here on the forums to look at this thread and if you can post pictures of the x-rays that would be very helpful.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/lottie-needs-your-thoughts-prayers-once-again-139121/

 

[Twitch6123]

Welcome to the forums and I am very sorry to hear about your little girl. I am not a vet but I do have very experienced vets that help me with my chameleons. Is your vet experienced in chameleons? If not I would highly recommend finding a good reptile vet with chameleon experience. My girl Lottie developed follicles and they had to be surgically removed right away. I can link you to my thread about it below. I'm going to ask a vet here on the forums to look at this thread and if you can post pictures of the x-rays that would be very helpful.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/lottie-needs-your-thoughts-prayers-once-again-139121/

Hi JanB,

Thank you very much. I don't have the X-rays but could request them from the vet. While the vet I went to didn't have a chameleon himself, he does raise snakes and I was referred to this Vet from another chameleon owner. I'm def still open to referrals and will see if I can request the X-rays. Im located in SoCal do any local referrals would be welcomed.

Also, can you tell me ballpark cost you paid and how your baby is doing post surgery..? Thanks so much everyone for the support and feedback!

 

[jannb]

Hi JanB,

Thank you very much. I don't have the X-rays but could request them from the vet. While the vet I went to didn't have a chameleon himself, he does raise snakes and I was referred to this Vet from another chameleon owner. I'm def still open to referrals and will see if I can request the X-rays. Im located in SoCal do any local referrals would be welcomed.

Also, can you tell me ballpark cost you paid and how your baby is doing post surgery..? Thanks so much everyone for the support and feedback!

Below is a couple of vets in your area. My girl is doing well. You can see her here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/mem...e-s-great-granddaughter-spike-s-daughter.html


Each vet charges differently but hundreds of dollars probably.

Kent67
Retired Moderator
*
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sun Diego
Posts: 3,406

*
Dr Boyer is excellent but my favorite cham vet in SD is Dr. Todd Cecil at the Emergency and Specialty Hospital in La Mesa on Jackson and in Chula Vista (not sure location).

 

[kinyonga]

In the xrays, are the follicles/eggs round or oval?

Can you post another recent photo of the chameleon please?

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I would not discount the possibility that she has not finished developing the eggs. Furthermore, if they are infertile eggs, they might not fully calcify in the first place.

 

[Twitch6123]

Thanks for the continued feedback guys and to the last poster, I'm hoping the liquid calcium does help in developing the eggs further. The Vet said if he doesn't see any progress then they will need to be surgically removed.

Eric, these eggs are infertile.

I attached the xray which shows several round clusters, not oval like we would hope. Also, the two other pics posted are recent from this past week/end.

 

[JoeVet]

If she was diagnosed with follicular stasis then there are no eggs to be laid, only pre-ovulatory follicles. Dystocia is when eggs are present but not being laid. It can be difficult to diagnose follicular stasis because the distinction between normal follicle development and stasis is time. If the vet is administering calcium then there is likely some calcium deficiency present. Calcium is needed for proper follicle development and deficiency can lead to stasis. I would recommend putting a egg bin in the cage and if possible expose her to a male. Exposure to a male can sometimes induce ovulation. Copulation is not a requirement. If there is no response then ovariectomy is the treatment of choice. Unlike dystocia, follicular stasis is not as much an emergency and there is time to get her in better shape before surgery. Be careful handling because as follicles age they can easily rupture and cause a ceolomitis.

 

[Twitch6123]

If she was diagnosed with follicular stasis then there are no eggs to be laid, only pre-ovulatory follicles. Dystocia is when eggs are present but not being laid. It can be difficult to diagnose follicular stasis because the distinction between normal follicle development and stasis is time. If the vet is administering calcium then there is likely some calcium deficiency present. Calcium is needed for proper follicle development and deficiency can lead to stasis. I would recommend putting a egg bin in the cage and if possible expose her to a male. Exposure to a male can sometimes induce ovulation. Copulation is not a requirement. If there is no response then ovariectomy is the treatment of choice. Unlike dystocia, follicular stasis is not as much an emergency and there is time to get her in better shape before surgery. Be careful handling because as follicles age they can easily rupture and cause a ceolomitis.

Very good advice, especially about handling her as I wasn't aware of that. I did read that interaction with a male would release certain hormones that could be beneficial in this instance. She is certainly lacking the eggs and as the xray shows she def has the follicles(bunches of grapes) present, it just seems to not want to develop any further. However, as you stated time will tell and my next visit to the vet should tell me exactly where she's at given the time she's had to develop.

I'll put the lay bin back in her cage just in case she's getting 'close'. In your opinion what is the timeframe in which the current state of her follicles will turn into eggs and be ready to lay?

 

[JoeVet]

She does indeed have a lot of follicles. She also has a prominent gular air sac seen on the x-ray. A little while back someone was asking about gular edema of their gravid females and I think as we see on the xray that the follicles push into the lung space and the air sac becomes (hyper?) inflated. A normal thing.

Unfortunately I am not in private practice and don't see reptile reproductive problems outside of my books and training. I don't know the timing from follicle development, to ovulation and egg formation. I believe veileds normal gestation is 30 days. Those follicles look well developed so if you are going to see something I would expect it in a week or so. When is the follow-up appointment?

 

[Twitch6123]

She does indeed have a lot of follicles. She also has a prominent gular air sac seen on the x-ray. A little while back someone was asking about gular edema of their gravid females and I think as we see on the xray that the follicles push into the lung space and the air sac becomes (hyper?) inflated. A normal thing.

Unfortunately I am not in private practice and don't see reptile reproductive problems outside of my books and training. I don't know the timing from follicle development, to ovulation and egg formation. I believe veileds normal gestation is 30 days. Those follicles look well developed so if you are going to see something I would expect it in a week or so. When is the follow-up appointment?

The Vet said we can schedule one on 1-2 weeks. My first appointment being last Friday 8/21. So I can either wait until this Friday or next which would be 2 full weeks. In the meantime, we have an email thread going keeping him updated on things.

The air sac seen on the image, we thought was basically poop still moving its way through her body, it will be interesting to see if its still there on the next xray. Glad to hear its normal nevertheless.

 

[JoeVet]

Was talking about the air sac under the mandible (chin) not in the intestines.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Those look to me to be near full-sized eggs, not undeveloped follicles. those are generally much smaller. When I've dissected females, the follicles were always much smaller.

What problem presented itself to warrant an xray/diagnosis? She does not at all seem to be suffering calcium deficiency, as the bones seem straight and she seems plenty strong.

The last thing I want to do is question a vet's opinion - especially when I have not seen the animal myself -but I just wonder if there's even anything wrong with her at all.

From the pics and behavior you've described, I see nothing out of the ordinary for an unmated female veiled filled with unfertilized eggs. Get her an adequate (tell us what you're using - it should be big enough and deep enough for her to burrow in) lay bin and put it in her cage. Keep the mixture moist but not wet.

I believe with follicular stasis, the problem is that they don't develop/grow. Her eggs seem to have grown considerably. I know they appear round, but that is likely because the eggs are not fully developed yet.

Basically, though I am NOT a vet, I see nothing out of the ordinary or unexpected for a female veiled.

 

[kinyonga]

I think they are eggs too since they seem to not be perfectly round but somewhat oval.

Follicular stasis means the follicles are in a state of no progress. If they remain in stasis, which they usually do, the chameleon usually dies eventually because the follicles dry out and peritonitis usually results.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I went ahead and checked google for images of chameleon xrays - most look like the above. I think that they are rounded because they are not fully developed. Hopefully, she lays them without incident. I see no immediate reason why she would not.

 

[kinyonga]

Here's a photo of follicles...round...
http://birdsandexotics.com/wp-content/uploads/napoleon21-225x300.jpg
http://birdsandexotics.com/2013/11/case-study-3-napoleon-the-chameleon/

You might be interested in this article too..
https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevie...n-ovulatory-reproductive-cycles-in-W1BRM0WOkX