Hello everyone! I'm new! :D
- Thread starter Sozer
- Start date
SpinyFranky
New Member
Have you ever taken a biology class? If you did you would know most of this. Most of this applies to our own bodies as well, nature is not that different from one species to the next. Besides reptiles being cold blooded and mammals warm blooded - our systems are very much alike.
In the human body, we are kept warm to provide energy for proper system function. Warm blood is less dense and thus travels throughout the body quicker. Warm body temperature also prevents food from rotting in our stomachs, as well as aiding in the proper breakdown of food into raw nutrients.
Have you noticed that when it is cold outside, we urinate more often? this is to keep your body warm. In the heat we urinate less to retain water - which in turn keeps the body cooler.
Starvation and Starving are two different terms.
When did I say that I was telling anyone anything?
I stated my opinion, that was all. If you are reading my opinion and taking it as me telling you what to do then you are mistaken. I can say how I feel about things, and I can practice my beliefs- and state them if I wish. Doing so in no way implys that I am trying to force my beliefs or practices onto you or any other.
Thinking the way you are is not only mistaken but also assumptious.
In the human body, we are kept warm to provide energy for proper system function. Warm blood is less dense and thus travels throughout the body quicker. Warm body temperature also prevents food from rotting in our stomachs, as well as aiding in the proper breakdown of food into raw nutrients.
Have you noticed that when it is cold outside, we urinate more often? this is to keep your body warm. In the heat we urinate less to retain water - which in turn keeps the body cooler.
Starvation and Starving are two different terms.
When did I say that I was telling anyone anything?
I stated my opinion, that was all. If you are reading my opinion and taking it as me telling you what to do then you are mistaken. I can say how I feel about things, and I can practice my beliefs- and state them if I wish. Doing so in no way implys that I am trying to force my beliefs or practices onto you or any other.
Thinking the way you are is not only mistaken but also assumptious.
Syn
Avid Member
I'm done replying to this thread until other people can give their input. No point in two/three people "arguing" back and fourth over something that has been done for a while. Like you said, it's your opinion! But is it right? That's for you to find out. Best of luck to you with that, and I hope your chameleons are happy and healthy as can be, however long(short) their lives are. Good luck with your endeavors, and maybe you can prove a thing or two.
Usually implies there was sarcasm in the post, or something was odd/funny. Many forum users use it often here!
*
*sarcasm
Hint:
Usually implies there was sarcasm in the post, or something was odd/funny. Many forum users use it often here! I live in Arizona, what is this cold you speak of?
* *sarcasm
I'm done replying to this thread until other people can give their input. No point in two/three people "arguing" back and fourth over something that has been done for a while. Like you said, it's your opinion! But is it right? That's for you to find out. Best of luck to you with that, and I hope your chameleons are happy and healthy as can be, however long(short) their lives are.
Hint:
I live in Arizona, what is this cold you speak of?
That is animosity. Get rid of it and this forum will improve ten fold.
animosity - conveying ill will that arouses active hostility
SpinyFranky
New Member
Assuming that animals have emotions ( Which I believe to be true )
I would think that a chameleon who was well taken care, in this case a female who layed clutches as dictated by her biological design....
I would then assume that animal would be much more content with her life lived. Though yes it will probably be shorter than the life span of a female whose' owners did all thing possible to prevent egg laying....
In the end I think the animal that acted more within its instincts and according to its design would have had the much happier life.
Just because it is a pet, does not mean I have the right to change its nature.
Just because I bought her does not mean I can tell her to never lay eggs, or to eat less, or to bask in less than preferred temperatures.
She may be mine legally due to consumer practices - but her essence still belongs to nature. It is my duty as keeper to provide a suitable mimicry of nature so that she will not know the difference between her enclosure and if she were in her natural habitat. That includes food consumption, nutrition, temperatures, day and night cycle.... and yes, egg laying.
However this is all just my humble opinion - take it as that and that alone. Please do not assume I am trying to force any methods onto anyone, as that would be untrue.
I would think that a chameleon who was well taken care, in this case a female who layed clutches as dictated by her biological design....
I would then assume that animal would be much more content with her life lived. Though yes it will probably be shorter than the life span of a female whose' owners did all thing possible to prevent egg laying....
In the end I think the animal that acted more within its instincts and according to its design would have had the much happier life.
Just because it is a pet, does not mean I have the right to change its nature.
Just because I bought her does not mean I can tell her to never lay eggs, or to eat less, or to bask in less than preferred temperatures.
She may be mine legally due to consumer practices - but her essence still belongs to nature. It is my duty as keeper to provide a suitable mimicry of nature so that she will not know the difference between her enclosure and if she were in her natural habitat. That includes food consumption, nutrition, temperatures, day and night cycle.... and yes, egg laying.
However this is all just my humble opinion - take it as that and that alone. Please do not assume I am trying to force any methods onto anyone, as that would be untrue.
SpinyFranky
New Member
2 months ago
1 month ago
1 week ago
Thank you, So far I would like to think that my practice have been of some success so far. Isabella, my female, so far appears to be in excellent health.
Definitely man... such vibrant colorations. congrats and gj.
Cainschams
New Member
LOL!!! You are correct
However there are lots of experienced people on the forums. You really do need to need to change some things and quick if you want your little guy to live a long healthy life. Sorry but just because something is published does not make it correct. The bible is the first thing that comes to mind to meAnyway it is nice to see a fellow West Virginian on board!!!!
I grew up near Wheeling. What part are you located??? I make trips back to where I grew up and also there are quite a few places in WV close to where I live in Maryland now. If you are close enough to come over I could show you some of my setups and chams in personPlease feel free to PM me if you do not want to disclose your info online. If close enough I could provide a loaner cage. Need it back at the beginning of March though
Some posts may seem very critical but everyone here is here for one thing. To learn and help out others to successfully keep chameleons, regardless if the info is bad, decent, good, or great we all want one thing and that is for chameleons to thrive in anyones possession.
SpinyFranky said..."Some forum members here choose to give females less food and lower temperatures to suppress egg laying, but in reality it is starving the animal of proper nutrients"...I don't starve my females...I restrict their calories somewhat. I feed them enough not to become fat and keep the temperatures a couple of degrees cooler to slow their metabolism slightly so they won't be so hungry. I gutload/feed the insects well and dust them so that the chameleon gets a nutritious diet. My chameleons are not skinny...nor are they fat.
You said..."when you do this you are denying the animal of the heat required to make its entire system function properly"...if that were true then wouldn't the chameleon eventually become sick?? Wouldn't more things within the chameleon's system (heart, other organs) suffer too through a gradual depletion of nutrients? Wouldn't the chameleon's life be shortened rather than being lengthened?
You said..."If you are unwilling to do this, then you should purchase a male or research a live bearing species"...a live bearing species still requires all the nutrients to make babies that an egglayer does basically.
You said..."I would also like to think that a proper diet would do well to prevent becoming dehydrated so quickly or egg bound - as so commonly heard of on these forums"...what does diet control have to do with hydration? What specifically do you consider to be a proper diet that will do what you suggest??
You said..."It is my duty as keeper to provide a suitable mimicry of nature so that she will not know the difference between her enclosure and if she were in her natural habitat."..so then you intend to provide low temperatures for the weeks of winter and food restriction that would occur during that time as well?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/yemen/geography.htm
Calorie restriction...
"The hearts of mice on the low-calorie diets showed nearly 20% fewer age-related genetic changes and also appeared to have less DNA damage than those of mice on regular diets. Restricting calories also inhibited potentially disease-causing changes in the immune system, and suppressed apoptosis, or programmed cell death."
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/000474.html
"MRIs reveal less shrinking with age in areas important for decision-making and controlling movement in the brains of calorie-restricted animals"...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/8...lorie-diet-staves-off-aging-death-in-monkeys/
"caloric restriction reduced the risk of developing an age-related disease by a factor of three and increased survival" and "a halving of the incidence of cancer and cardiovascular disease was observed in this group."
http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Calorie-restriction-leads-to-longer-life-Study
You said..."when you do this you are denying the animal of the heat required to make its entire system function properly"...if that were true then wouldn't the chameleon eventually become sick?? Wouldn't more things within the chameleon's system (heart, other organs) suffer too through a gradual depletion of nutrients? Wouldn't the chameleon's life be shortened rather than being lengthened?
You said..."If you are unwilling to do this, then you should purchase a male or research a live bearing species"...a live bearing species still requires all the nutrients to make babies that an egglayer does basically.
You said..."I would also like to think that a proper diet would do well to prevent becoming dehydrated so quickly or egg bound - as so commonly heard of on these forums"...what does diet control have to do with hydration? What specifically do you consider to be a proper diet that will do what you suggest??
You said..."It is my duty as keeper to provide a suitable mimicry of nature so that she will not know the difference between her enclosure and if she were in her natural habitat."..so then you intend to provide low temperatures for the weeks of winter and food restriction that would occur during that time as well?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/yemen/geography.htm
Calorie restriction...
"The hearts of mice on the low-calorie diets showed nearly 20% fewer age-related genetic changes and also appeared to have less DNA damage than those of mice on regular diets. Restricting calories also inhibited potentially disease-causing changes in the immune system, and suppressed apoptosis, or programmed cell death."
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/000474.html
"MRIs reveal less shrinking with age in areas important for decision-making and controlling movement in the brains of calorie-restricted animals"...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/8...lorie-diet-staves-off-aging-death-in-monkeys/
"caloric restriction reduced the risk of developing an age-related disease by a factor of three and increased survival" and "a halving of the incidence of cancer and cardiovascular disease was observed in this group."
http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Calorie-restriction-leads-to-longer-life-Study
jeanjacket812
New Member
Sozer my advice to you would be to soak in as much information off this forum as possible, most of the people on here that will comment on your posts aren't famous book authors but they are PROFESSIONAL breeders they do this for a living. I mostly sit back and try to be a sponge. Most on here don't intentionally "flame" but everyone on here is super passionate about their hobby and can't help being a little upset. I am no expert by any means but the first thing I would do in your setup would be provide proper heat and uvb/uva. then I would work on getting that sopping wet dirt out of there. That critter keeper is wrong for the little guy I don't care what the book said. They would work for tiny babies and pygmys probally but your guy needs to climb. Trust me on this, no one on here will ever intetionally give you wrong information and if they do, you will know it because the members on here are on it!
Sozer...I have been keeping/breeding/hatching/raising chameleons and many other reptiles for over 20 years...so I hope I have enough experience in your opinion to comment on your set-up and husbandry!
Chameleons need UVB light either from direct sunlight or from a proper UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the Repti-sun 5.0 long linear tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and even some of the tube lights have been causing health issues with chameleons but this one has not. The UVB from sunlight or the UVB light should not pass through glass or plastic.
I'm relatively sure that the UV light from Walmart is not a good one, but without seeing the box or the brand, etc. I can't be sure.
Exposure to UVB allows the chameleon to produce vitamin D3 which allows it to use the calcium in its system.
I keep the temperature for young chameleons up to about 5 months in the warmest area of the cage in the low 80's....and the female adults as well. I keep the adult males in the mid to high 80's.
Appropriate temperatures aid in digestion and thus play an indirect part in nutrient absorption.
For the adult males, in addition to the UVB light you can use a regular incandescent household bulb in a dome fixture of an appropriate wattage to provide that temperature.
Veileds need no heat at night as long as the tempertures don't drop below the mid 60's for babies....and if it does, I would recommend using a ceramic heat "bulb" not a lightbulb to keep the temperature in the right range.
Regarding supplements...I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium at most feedings to help make up for the often poor ratio of calcium to phos.
I dust twice a month with Rep-cal's phos.-free calcium/D3 powder to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and cause problems. (As long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB it shouldn't build up.)
I dust twice a monthe with Herptivite. It has a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A and beta carotene will not build up in the system like prEformed vitamin A will. Excess prEformed vitamin A can interfere with the D3 and push the chameleon towards MBD...so care needs to be taken with it. Since there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene, some people give the chameleon a little prEformed vitamin A once in a while....but at least this way its controlled and there is less chance of an overdose.
Gutloading/feeding the insects well is also important. I gutload crickets, roaches, superworms with a wide assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, celery leaves, zucchini, etc.) These same greens and veggies can be offered to your veiled once its about 5 months old along with a small amount of fruit (apple, pear, melon, berries, etc.).
Water can be provided by misting and using a dripper...but be careful with the dripper for young chameleons...sometimes they can aspirate the water.
Regarding your set-up...it should be larger. This might be part of the reason he's pawing at the sides of the cage, etc.
I never use substrate since its can be ingested and some will lead to impaction...so IMHO its not worth the risk.
A thermometer or two would let you see that you have the temperatures in the cage right.
If you use real plants (and I recommend that you don't use artificial ones with veileds since they may ingest them..or try to) they should be non-toxic, well-washed, both sides of the leaves. The chameleon may try to eat the soil, so its best to cover it IMHO.
Here are some good sites...
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/
http://adcham.com/
Good luck with your chameleon!
Pshh...thanks for the comments!
Chameleons need UVB light either from direct sunlight or from a proper UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the Repti-sun 5.0 long linear tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and even some of the tube lights have been causing health issues with chameleons but this one has not. The UVB from sunlight or the UVB light should not pass through glass or plastic.
I'm relatively sure that the UV light from Walmart is not a good one, but without seeing the box or the brand, etc. I can't be sure.
Exposure to UVB allows the chameleon to produce vitamin D3 which allows it to use the calcium in its system.
I keep the temperature for young chameleons up to about 5 months in the warmest area of the cage in the low 80's....and the female adults as well. I keep the adult males in the mid to high 80's.
Appropriate temperatures aid in digestion and thus play an indirect part in nutrient absorption.
For the adult males, in addition to the UVB light you can use a regular incandescent household bulb in a dome fixture of an appropriate wattage to provide that temperature.
Veileds need no heat at night as long as the tempertures don't drop below the mid 60's for babies....and if it does, I would recommend using a ceramic heat "bulb" not a lightbulb to keep the temperature in the right range.
Regarding supplements...I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium at most feedings to help make up for the often poor ratio of calcium to phos.
I dust twice a month with Rep-cal's phos.-free calcium/D3 powder to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and cause problems. (As long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB it shouldn't build up.)
I dust twice a monthe with Herptivite. It has a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A and beta carotene will not build up in the system like prEformed vitamin A will. Excess prEformed vitamin A can interfere with the D3 and push the chameleon towards MBD...so care needs to be taken with it. Since there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene, some people give the chameleon a little prEformed vitamin A once in a while....but at least this way its controlled and there is less chance of an overdose.
Gutloading/feeding the insects well is also important. I gutload crickets, roaches, superworms with a wide assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, celery leaves, zucchini, etc.) These same greens and veggies can be offered to your veiled once its about 5 months old along with a small amount of fruit (apple, pear, melon, berries, etc.).
Water can be provided by misting and using a dripper...but be careful with the dripper for young chameleons...sometimes they can aspirate the water.
Regarding your set-up...it should be larger. This might be part of the reason he's pawing at the sides of the cage, etc.
I never use substrate since its can be ingested and some will lead to impaction...so IMHO its not worth the risk.
A thermometer or two would let you see that you have the temperatures in the cage right.
If you use real plants (and I recommend that you don't use artificial ones with veileds since they may ingest them..or try to) they should be non-toxic, well-washed, both sides of the leaves. The chameleon may try to eat the soil, so its best to cover it IMHO.
Here are some good sites...
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/
http://adcham.com/
Good luck with your chameleon!
Pshh...thanks for the comments!
I havent finished reading all the replies yet but always check dates in the books...most are wrong or are just based off of some random tv show about chams which is also usualy wrong and out dated...not all chams need screen and not all chams need to be kept in glass...its not that the people on here are being mean they just want you to have a good first time cham experience and save the life of that little girl. if she were only as big as your little finger you would be ok except for the substrate....
Elizadolots
New Member
A few thoughts...this thread was bumped up after more than a month apparently just to make a negative comment...not cool.
And, the book cited is being sold at lllreptile right now...so, it's reasonable for someone to think it has valid information in it. After all....don't a lot of people point to lllreptile and say "go here"?
Finally, I was amused (not in a particularly good way) by one poster who admitted to having impulse bought a chameleon only to ultimately seeing that chameleon die from improper care--then turn around and berate the original poster for not having done research before buying the chameleon.
I suspect a substantial number* of posters here have had a bad early chameleon experience which prodded them to learn more so as not to do so badly in the future. I know I have.
That should make us sympathetic to the impulse buyer who is now over his head...instead this one (and, he's not alone) got "you should have done research before buying!!!" which is sort of like telling the child who's on fire that she shouldn't have been sticking her finger in the candle in the first place....put out the fire first, then start educating.
And, for crying out loud, remember how much you hated being lectured about what you "should" have done when you were faced with a crisis. Discussing what should have been done in the past is fine when the situation is stable. I think that's highly educational and helpful.
Telling someone who's worried his animal is dying that he should have done research before buying is not helpful. That information should wait until the crisis is over.
I almost think this thread should be stickied under the title: What Not to Do because it's really a perfect illustration of how to piss off an owner who could benefit from the information at this forum but has no interest in being abused for simply doing what he thought was right.
* note that "substantial number" is not "a majority" or "most" or even "a lot"...so, obviously there will be many who did, in fact, do a load of research before and never had the horror of losing a chameleon due to personal lack of knowledge.
And, the book cited is being sold at lllreptile right now...so, it's reasonable for someone to think it has valid information in it. After all....don't a lot of people point to lllreptile and say "go here"?
Finally, I was amused (not in a particularly good way) by one poster who admitted to having impulse bought a chameleon only to ultimately seeing that chameleon die from improper care--then turn around and berate the original poster for not having done research before buying the chameleon.
I suspect a substantial number* of posters here have had a bad early chameleon experience which prodded them to learn more so as not to do so badly in the future. I know I have.
That should make us sympathetic to the impulse buyer who is now over his head...instead this one (and, he's not alone) got "you should have done research before buying!!!" which is sort of like telling the child who's on fire that she shouldn't have been sticking her finger in the candle in the first place....put out the fire first, then start educating.
And, for crying out loud, remember how much you hated being lectured about what you "should" have done when you were faced with a crisis. Discussing what should have been done in the past is fine when the situation is stable. I think that's highly educational and helpful.
Telling someone who's worried his animal is dying that he should have done research before buying is not helpful. That information should wait until the crisis is over.
I almost think this thread should be stickied under the title: What Not to Do because it's really a perfect illustration of how to piss off an owner who could benefit from the information at this forum but has no interest in being abused for simply doing what he thought was right.
* note that "substantial number" is not "a majority" or "most" or even "a lot"...so, obviously there will be many who did, in fact, do a load of research before and never had the horror of losing a chameleon due to personal lack of knowledge.
supermrchameleon
New Member
Okay so your he looks like a she. Check for an extra tow thing on the back feet. If they dont have it, its a girl. And she may be digging because she needs to lay eggs (though she seems to young so it might probably have something to do with the enclosure not being suitable for her) regardless if she's mated. Get her a damp sand box to lay her eggs in and put her in it when she acts like this. She will die if she can not lay eggs.
Her cage... nicely put... sucks. You need to get a mesh cage at least four feet tall.
Both lights should be kept on for 12 hours a day. If your place doesnt drop below 50 then no lights at night should be fine. You can get a good timer at walmart.
And make sure your feeing her more than one cricket.
Her cage... nicely put... sucks. You need to get a mesh cage at least four feet tall.
Both lights should be kept on for 12 hours a day. If your place doesnt drop below 50 then no lights at night should be fine. You can get a good timer at walmart.
And make sure your feeing her more than one cricket.
Elizadolots
New Member
The thread is fairly old....the original poster appears to have bailed...
supermrchameleon
New Member
Haha I see. I just saw the bold indicating a new thing had been posted. Lol well I hope he fixed the problems!
gpmo
New Member
I know this is a bit of an old post but i wanted to say a few things on it. As a person that is used to the internet ( i started on BBS before the I-net) i understand forums and the people on them. But as one poster right above mentioned this should be stickied.
This guy needed help asked for it and got immediately verbally raped instead of getting the proper information. Remember that text has no inflection and therefore is upto the reader/s to apply inflection based on sentence structure and harshness of words. Thats where the Smileys came in back in the day they allowed people to apply emotion to text. Remember this and it does everyone well.
If i was brand new to this forum (which i basically am) and to the web you all would have run me off due to your lack of tact. Yes its annoying when you know something and someone else doesn't and yes its annoying when you have to repeat it several times over and over, but guess what thats why we have forums like this. WE have a passion for our hobby and we came here to give and take information to make us better at what we do. And to make the lives of the precious little creatures in our care the best we can!!
So thanks to some of you that posted links, you have provided me with great resources.
Gpmo (him not her)
P.S. someone told me that there isn't only one way to do things right sometimes, there are often multiple ways. Keep that in mind when giving your opinions and thoughts.
This guy needed help asked for it and got immediately verbally raped instead of getting the proper information. Remember that text has no inflection and therefore is upto the reader/s to apply inflection based on sentence structure and harshness of words. Thats where the Smileys came in back in the day they allowed people to apply emotion to text. Remember this and it does everyone well.
If i was brand new to this forum (which i basically am) and to the web you all would have run me off due to your lack of tact. Yes its annoying when you know something and someone else doesn't and yes its annoying when you have to repeat it several times over and over, but guess what thats why we have forums like this. WE have a passion for our hobby and we came here to give and take information to make us better at what we do. And to make the lives of the precious little creatures in our care the best we can!!
So thanks to some of you that posted links, you have provided me with great resources.
Gpmo (him not her)
P.S. someone told me that there isn't only one way to do things right sometimes, there are often multiple ways. Keep that in mind when giving your opinions and thoughts.
