HELP, CHAMELEON HAS FALLEN....swollen leg

[JackAttack]

His eyes look pretty healty to me. All 4 of my veileds have bulging eyes. That is normal.

nah, i know that chams have bulgy eyes, but this is strange bulgy, like almost looks like he cant point his pupils forward, like they're so bulgy that they are just stuck outwards...................can you see it in the pic? or is it just me..................it was enough to take me aback when i saw it, not what the usual cham looks like............

 

[Eric Adrignola]

it's absolutly not normal. I've seen this is chameleons with nutritional imbalances - it's often a kind of edema, or fluid buildup. Many times, especially in montanes, it's from lack of vitamin A. Of course, such problems are so fun to diagnose, as TOO MUCH vitamin A cancause similar swellings... It's hard to tell.

What kind of supplements was he getting and how often?

I think the various medications and fluids injected into him are possile suspects. Didn't you mention, VERY early in this situation, that he was having swollen eyes????

 

[Docility]

nah, i know that chams have bulgy eyes, but this is strange bulgy, like almost looks like he cant point his pupils forward, like they're so bulgy that they are just stuck outwards...................can you see it in the pic? or is it just me..................it was enough to take me aback when i saw it, not what the usual cham looks like............

Ocillie did that with his lack of vitamin A. this is really dumb, but have to supplemented him with vitamin A at all, and if so how much, and what?

 

[JackAttack]

hello all,

jack has never been supplimented with vitamin A. before he got sick, his crickets were dusted with calcium powder whenever he ate. D3 twice a month. the d3 powder does have other vitamins in it as well...multivitamin. where do they get vitamin A?..........his staple diet is crickets.............if it was that he had too much vitamin A, i'd say that it would have been gone from his system by now, he has not eaten in about a week..........is that safe to say??? so perhaps its a vit A deficency???? if so, what can i do to up the vit A???????????



his eyes are not swollen all the time, ive only caught it happening twice now, and its like when i spot it, if he moves, they go back to normal. the first time was at night a few weeks ago, and the latest was a few days ago in the afternoon. i havent noticed this before, but my husband said he has seen jack do it a few times.................

 

[Eric Adrignola]

If he has never had any preformed vitamin A in his diet, it would probably not hurt him one tiny bit. Get some reptivite, which is a good multivitamin with PREFORMED vitami A in it, and give him an insect dusted with it. Maybe repeat in a week, then, after that, give it to him once a month.

I's possible to overdose them with the stuff - but if it's only every week, or every other week or LESS, chances of that happening are minimal.

 

[JackAttack]

well i have never knowingly given jack vitamin A...........would he have gotten too much from the crickets? he uses reptivite already, twice a month. its reptivite with d3.........i only started it on him about 2 months ago though.........

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

here's a pic of jacks bulging eyes................??? any idea why this is happening? once was right before he was going to sleep, and the other was this afternoon, just while he was chilling on his branch...........sorry the one is blurry, but you can still tell how bulgy they are..........

There is a fat pad between the eyes, inside the skull (according to our vet). When the chameleon is chubby, the eyes will have a bulged look. When the chameleon is thin or emaciated, the eyes will appear sunken. That is one cause of bulging eyes.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

normal eyes are bulging out and round. These were not round, they were not normal.

Normal chameleons, healthy or overweight, should have nearly globular eyes - round. A really overweight chameleon will have more bulgy eyes.

Sunken or bulging abnormally are both not good. Healthy eyes look like a near-perfect sphere is jammed into their head.

 

[JackAttack]

agreed eric, these were not his normal set of sphere shaped eyes. it only lasts a few seconds, and does not stick around. i have seen it in other chams ive owned, near sleep time.

last night i fed him 3 crickets dusted with reptivite. he ate them no problems. now i will wait and see if it helps any?..................


we were trying to retrace our steps, and it seems like perhaps right before jack got sick, he was on a bit of a cricket strike. he was eating a more than usual amount of silked and horned worms for about 3 weeks or so, give or take. could this have anything to do with his illness??????????

also, on jacks front left paw, he is developing what almost looks like a little lump. its totally under the skin, and feels like a build up of something hard, almost like a bone. i dont think anything is broken, he still uses the foot as much as possible, and it doesnt seem to be affecting him too much, but its definately there, and its definately new...............any thoughts........

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Reptivite HAS preformed vitamin A. So, he's getting some of that. Was he getting a calcium supplement? Reptivite is good as a multivitamin, occationally, as it HAS preformed vitamin A. I would use herptivite more often, for vitamins, as it does not have preformed A in it. They do't need too much of it - it can be toxic.

Take a good, clear, close up pic of his foot. Hard, lumps are often signs of gout.

 

[JackAttack]

i will try and get a picture of his little lump,,,,,,,,,,,its hard because its kind of small and hard to even see with my eye............. i'll try my best and get it up today.............. i got a message today saying that it sounds like jack has all the signs of kidney problems, but that if tested and confirmed, there is a drug that can help him...............im going to take him to a new vet and make them do blood work to see what comes up. if there's any way i can help him............

 

[JackAttack]

here is a pic of his new "lump"................

 

[Eric Adrignola]

that looks like gout to me - but I've never had a chameleon with gout, so better get others opinions.

 

[JackAttack]

ok eric,

anyone else have any ideas????? he just had a urate, that was light orange in color, no poops with it

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

You are right about the feet/ankle/leg swelling. It is especially noticeable in the #3 photo . I wonder about some kind of systemic infection or maybe even organ (kidney?) failure .

Howdy,

Does the swollen area of the foot feel rock-hard? If so then it is possible that it is gout. Gout and kidney issues can go hand-in-hand.

Here are a couple of my necropsy photos showing classic Tophaceous Gout:

"Tophaceous gout which is the inability to excrete uric acid resulting in urate crystal deposits in cartilage, sinovial membranes, tendons, and soft tissue"...
http://www.reptilerepublic.com/university/stories/clinical-veiled.html

Reptilian Gout
Douglas Mader
Marathon Veterinary Hospital, Marathon, FL, USA
http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2009_V716.pdf#page=1

 

[JackAttack]

Howdy,

Does the swollen area of the foot feel rock-hard? If so then it is possible that it is gout. Gout and kidney issues can go hand-in-hand.

Here are a couple of my necropsy photos showing classic Tophaceous Gout:

"Tophaceous gout which is the inability to excrete uric acid resulting in urate crystal deposits in cartilage, sinovial membranes, tendons, and soft tissue"...
http://www.reptilerepublic.com/university/stories/clinical-veiled.html

Reptilian Gout
Douglas Mader
Marathon Veterinary Hospital, Marathon, FL, USA
http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2009_V716.pdf#page=1

his foot doesnt feel hard where it is swollen, no. it feels squishy. it does feel rock hard like bone in the lump in the picture tho..........

 

[GooglezNvincent]

Whata the update on jack?! he get any blood tests done?

 

[JackAttack]

jack's latest update

hello to all,

yesterday i took jack to a new vet. after hesitation because of the last visits, i decided it was in his best interests to seek a second opinion. this vet seemed to know his way around reptiles quite well, and gave a feeling of confidence. this could also just be me, hoping he is right, and we can fix things. i am just going to write exactly what the vet wrote on my take home sheet outlining the visit. here goes............


"Jack is showing signs of weakness, trembling, and muscle wasting. He has a history of being treated with a number of antibiotics, to no apparent effect. There are no signs of infection today, and the radiographs of the swollen parts of the legs are more consistent with hyperparathyroidism - the main cause of this is nutritional/environmental from insufficient calcium intake. However, renal problems can also lead to this. Given his age and history I suspect nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism ( so called metabolic bone disease).

Please stop all medications other than the fluids you are giving under the skin; give the calcium as prescribed and the ponazuril ( treatment for coccidia) only. Let me know how things go and if we see slow continued improvement, great. If not, we should consider a blood screening for further evaluation.

Double check the temperatures as discussed, so the basking site is actually around 105 F or so, as long as the cool side is low-mid 70's. Hope things go well, I know he'll get a lot of TLC

Asuming things go well, we will want to a follow up fecal exam in a couple of weeks."


soooo.............good and bad. got ponazuril for the coccidia, and he had a dose yesterday. today he ate 4 adult sized crickets, on his own the ponazuril is a 5 day treatment, 0.04 once a day for 5 days. vet also said he looked a little dehydrated in the mouth area, so im going to increase fluid intake, as well as keep up the injected fluid. the calcium drops are once a day for a week straight, then twice a week thereafter........those could be for life he said, we will have to see how he does...........he also recieved a shot of straight calcium at the office.


so does anybody else things its strange that the last vet said he had super bones, and this one seems to think otherwise?..........this vet also said that this could take a substantial amount of time to start working. they do everything slow, he says. he thinks that jack is too young for kidney failure, but did not rule it out completely. he thinks more signs point to early stages of MBD, but did want to make sure that i knew it could still be kidney problems. he said that if the calcium doesnt start working within a month or so, we will take blood and see if its the kidneys. he also said that bloodwork is hard because they test uric acid for kidney problems, and the temp of the cham at the time can great affect the outcome of the test........


any thoughts would be great, please let me know what you think......

 

[JackAttack]

correction, he has now eaten 6 crickets with dust, and taken 3 droppers of water. i havent given him his meds or fluid today yet........

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Young veileds respond to calcium VERY quickly. I've never seen an instance where it was requied for long periods. Repcal or minerall (with and without D3) will be enough (along with his UVB lights) to pull him through any MBD.