Help...i don't know what else to do

[Pindingy]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Male Sambava Panther just over a year old. I've had him sense he was a baby.
Handling - I don't handle him much... until recently. See below
Feeding - Their main diet is good old crickets dusted with sticky tongue farms outdoor calcium powder. about once every two weeks they get the stuff with D3. I'm gut loading the feeders with cricket feed. and I generally drop about 6 - 8 in a day, normally in the morning.
Supplements - No supplements just the sticky tongue farms
Watering - I mist in the morning and evening and leave a dripper slow dripping during the day. I generally mist over a minute on each of them, until i see a good amount of water on the leaves.
Fecal Description - lately once a week... and a big one... He has never been tested for parasites.
History - No previous problems until now.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen cage 24x24x30
Lighting - Just purchased the power sun 100w. and lighting is 12 on 12 off
Temperature - I live in southern california so he gets a moderate climate. lately it has been a bit cool at night probably in the low 60's. And i don't have any type of measuring device for their climate.
Humidity - Souther California
Plants - Ficus
Placement - The cage is about a foot off the floor and at the top is at about 4 feet roughly. Right in front of the fire place( no fires, Southern California)
Location - San Diego

Current Problem - I've taken him to the vet twice in the last two weeks. the vet says he dehyradated and gave him saline injections both times. Some neocal glucon, 2x a day for two weeks then 1x a day for the rest of the bottle, flagyl/ MI Cherry 1x a day for 10 days and booster dietary supplement 1x a day.
However, he does not seam to be doing much better, hanging upside down, not moving for hours, sitting on the bottom of the enclosure, not eating, not drinking. Just being very larthigic, the Vet told me to hand feed him at least 6 - 8 crickets a day.

So... i have handled him a lot lately. giving him medication and feeding him. I've put him in the shower, steam bath thing, he seamed to be ok with that the first time, the second time he just hung on the tree and didn't seem to impressed. I have put them outside as much as possible in the mid day, warm and sunny, he likes that. He's still very weak and refuses to eat even when I'm feeding him. Are they just slow healers, and I'm overreacting, or could this be something else.

Oh... I had left him in the care of my teenage daughter while I was out of the country for the last three months and found him like this when I returned. SO I ca
n only speak of how I take care of him. But he was clearly neglected... what now!

 

[Dynasty]

First off i'm terribly sorry for your ill cham. It's never easy to handle or deal with especially since they're such sensitive souls. I've lost a cham before and it for me for weeks. I cried for days.

Anyhow back to the subject. Has the vet told you any other possibilities of what this could be? Is his grip still strong or does it seem like he doesn't have the strength to hold on?

 

[kinyonga]

Please post a photo of him.

 

[Ulrich]

Hope he will recover soon. You said you mist twice a day. In general, I think you should increase that to 4 times a day at least. They are tropical animals and consume a fair amount of humidity through their skin, not only by drinking.

 

[Elizadolots]

Hi! You've come to the right place...alas, you will be beset with questions.

Are they in separate cages? I notice you used the plural a couple of times, but you said you misted each of them so that sounds like they are in separate cages.

They are slow healers....they are slow to get sick too, it just seems like it happens all at once because they hide things very well.

Have you gotten the chance to see poop? If so, what did it look like?

I think I would be dripping water right on his nose several times a day for at least a minute or two in addition to everything else. Often the water on the nose gets lapped into the mouth on instinct.

Can you post pictures?

 

[ataraxia]

Try misting his cage for a minute. Step away from the cage for a minute and then come back and mist for 3-5 minutes. This technique should be done three times a day.

If your comdortable. Forcing fluids would the easiest but the riskiest if not done right. patience, go slow, very small amounts is key. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/ataraxia/454-dehydration-solutions-force-fluid-tips.html If you are going to try this option be sure to mix in a little plain caclium.

Now you state you are using the sticky tongue farms indoor every feeding. The version has d3 which used every feeding over a period of time is going to cause serious problems. Plain phos free calcium should be used every feeding.

What is his cage temps (basking and ambients)?

 

[EvilLost]

The care you listed isn't perfect, but it is mostly on point and correct. Short of a disease of some kind (which I'm assuming your vet would have spotted), I think it would be worthwhile to find out what exactly your daughter did (or rather, didn't) do while you were gone. Is your vet a specialized reptile/herp/chameleon vet? A good vet makes the difference between life and death with exotics especially.

Also, in regards to supplements the calcium powder and D3 are the supplements . Your schedule seems right (calcium daily, d3 every 2 weeks) but you also should have a multivitamin every 2 weeks as well.

You said he is going to the bathroom once a WEEK? I'm not sure what to make of this, but it is troubling as my guys are all pretty daily regulars, some down to the hour (and it always seems huge!).


On an unrelated note, some general observations/tips about your husbandry that may help...

24x24x30 is quite small especially for a male panther. Most suggest 18x18x36 for adult females and 24x24x48 for adult males. I find that the more vertical space I give mine, the happier they are.

I would also suggest to invest $20 in a digital point n shoot thermometer. They are very worth the money and insurance of knowing you have good temps Given the temps around here (socal), and the fact that your cage is only 30" tall, I would guess that it is a little bit too hot in there. I can reach 85F easily using a 60W bulb and with 100W bulb I am well over 100F at my basking point.

How often do you change that powersun? I am not familiar with the outputs of this bulb, but the majority of UVB bulbs need to be changed about every 6 months to maintain good UVB output (they will still produce light/heat/etc, there is no way to know that UVB has stopped producing without a specialized UVB meter).

 

[carol5208]

"Their main diet is good old crickets dusted with sticky tongue farms indoor calcium powder. about once every two weeks they get the stuff with D3." So you have been dusting every day with the Minerall Indoor and then in addition giving the "stuff" with the d3 every two weeks?. As Ataraxia said the indoor forumula of Minerall has d3 so if you have been giving that everyday for the past year it may be part of your problem. He maybe on d3 overload.

 

[Pindingy]

Try misting his cage for a minute. Step away from the cage for a minute and then come back and mist for 3-5 minutes. This technique should be done three times a day.

If your comdortable. Forcing fluids would the easiest but the riskiest if not done right. patience, go slow, very small amounts is key. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/ataraxia/454-dehydration-solutions-force-fluid-tips.html If you are going to try this option be sure to mix in a little plain caclium.

Now you state you are using the sticky tongue farms indoor every feeding. The version has d3 which used every feeding over a period of time is going to cause serious problems. Plain phos free calcium should be used every feeding.

What is his cage temps (basking and ambients)?

Sorry... i mis-spoke it is the outdoor for every meal. and twice a month of the indoor.

I don't know the basking temp. the lamp is approx three inches off the top of the cage. So i do know he can bask and warm up if to cold.

 

[Pindingy]

Hi! You've come to the right place...alas, you will be beset with questions.

Are they in separate cages? I notice you used the plural a couple of times, but you said you misted each of them so that sounds like they are in separate cages.

They are slow healers....they are slow to get sick too, it just seems like it happens all at once because they hide things very well.

Have you gotten the chance to see poop? If so, what did it look like?

I think I would be dripping water right on his nose several times a day for at least a minute or two in addition to everything else. Often the water on the nose gets lapped into the mouth on instinct.

Can you post pictures?

Yes they are in separate cages, I thought they cohabited, until I got her, she was a rescue of sorts, the pet store that had her DID NOTHING for her, she was the only cham they had and was just too much work. She has recovered nicely and is just a sweetheart. However, she lived with him for two days and he was just PISSED. that was at least 5-6 months ago.

the only time he has pooped since I've been back has been very large and one end was brown like normal and the other end (that broke apart) looked like it was in a "sausage casing" and was a tanish color.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Did the vet perform a fecal? If not I'd bring a fresh poo in and have him/her perform a fecal float & smear. I dont like the description of that poop. He could be dealing with some parasites. Esp if you introduced her into his cage for a short period of time. Not trying to attack you but the female may have a slight parisitic load and infected the male while pooing in his cage. You see the cricks will eat the poops and then the chams eat the cricks and they are infected. While your there I'd get her poop checked also. She may not be showing any signs of parasites and she could still be carrying some. They dont show obvious signs until they get to the point of being unable to hide it anymore.

If they do turn out positive for worms or coccidia. Please be sure to hydrate them extremely well while on meds. The deworming process is hell on a chams kidneys and internal organs.

Just to help you. I would just bring in the poops clearly marked who's is who. Then if the vet requests a visit to prescribe the meds bring them in. That way they dont have to go thru the stress of a vet visit for a simple fecal. I dont bring mine in unless they have to. Fecals are simple tests he doesnt need the cham to run a fecal test.

 

[Pindingy]

The care you listed isn't perfect, but it is mostly on point and correct. Short of a disease of some kind (which I'm assuming your vet would have spotted), I think it would be worthwhile to find out what exactly your daughter did (or rather, didn't) do while you were gone. Is your vet a specialized reptile/herp/chameleon vet? A good vet makes the difference between life and death with exotics especially.

Also, in regards to supplements the calcium powder and D3 are the supplements . Your schedule seems right (calcium daily, d3 every 2 weeks) but you also should have a multivitamin every 2 weeks as well.

You said he is going to the bathroom once a WEEK? I'm not sure what to make of this, but it is troubling as my guys are all pretty daily regulars, some down to the hour (and it always seems huge!).


On an unrelated note, some general observations/tips about your husbandry that may help...

24x24x30 is quite small especially for a male panther. Most suggest 18x18x36 for adult females and 24x24x48 for adult males. I find that the more vertical space I give mine, the happier they are.

I would also suggest to invest $20 in a digital point n shoot thermometer. They are very worth the money and insurance of knowing you have good temps Given the temps around here (socal), and the fact that your cage is only 30" tall, I would guess that it is a little bit too hot in there. I can reach 85F easily using a 60W bulb and with 100W bulb I am well over 100F at my basking point.

How often do you change that powersun? I am not familiar with the outputs of this bulb, but the majority of UVB bulbs need to be changed about every 6 months to maintain good UVB output (they will still produce light/heat/etc, there is no way to know that UVB has stopped producing without a specialized UVB meter).

Thank you and I do have zoo med's reptivite w/ d3 but stopped using it because of the indoor sticky tongue having d3. I know I "assumed" that the sticky tongue had all of the vitamins as well. So should I start using the reptivite once every two weeks and cut out the sticky indoor d3?

As far as the cage... you just gave the excuse to buy it. I knew i had to soon, she is getting to big for her cage and can move into his and i'll get the big one for him. As far as the power sun... i just got it two weeks ago. And ZOOMED has a 1 year warranty on the thing. I purchased it at LLL and the staff used a UV scale/gauge and showed me the difference between all the bulbs in the store as well as telling me if i think is not "emitting" to bring it in and test it.

However i think your right i need to move it a little higher off the cage.

NOW... as far as the teenager...my teenage is of the denial species... I think they call them the ANGRIEST DENIALVENTIUM They change color also have a wide variety of vocalizations which are generally followed by quick retreat into her habitat.

 

[Elizadolots]

You should have a calcium without D3 that's used daily.

 

[Pindingy]

Ok...OK... I'm sorry I Mis-spoke-typed... I was tired last night. I give them sticky tongue farms outdoor miner-all every day, twice a month they get sticky tongue farms indoor miner-all.

She(Betty Ford) was in his(Walter Cronkite) cage for two days several months ago at least 4 months ago.

I replaced the repti-sun 5.0 with a power sun 100w two weeks ago in both cages.

Please don't get me wrong I'm just clarifying... not mad... I also am very grateful for all of your help and concern.

Thank you.

Pictures to follow.

 

[Pindingy]

These pictures are from this morning. As you can see they are outside today. I just finished misting them. I took her out just for her photo shoot... now don't get me wrong as soon as the door opens she has to come and see whats going on and will readily crawl right on your hand without hesitation.

His pictures are prior to medication time. as you can see he was very ready to drink when he was going back into his cage. And he has been very willing to drink today... that has not been the case in the last few days. So i take his willingness to drink and he is moving around more as a good sign.

in the fourth pict... I'm not pinching him ( just for those of you that will comment) holding him there gets him to open his mouth... which is better than the alternative.

Also, I'm working on an automatic mister system.

 

[Pindingy]

Just to follow up. I kept him well hydrated yesterday, misting him a lot, so much i cant even begin to count. he was very responsive to all the attention and is significantly better today. the misting schedule for today was increased however and he seems better for it.

Thank you all for your help.

Now I will go back to lurking

 

[SSimsswiSS]

Just to follow up. I kept him well hydrated yesterday, misting him a lot, so much i cant even begin to count. he was very responsive to all the attention and is significantly better today. the misting schedule for today was increased however and he seems better for it.

Thank you all for your help.

Now I will go back to lurking

Is he eating on his own? Sounds like you saved him. A dehydrated adult panther can be very hard save.

 

[Pindingy]

Is he eating on his own? Sounds like you saved him. A dehydrated adult panther can be very hard save.

No... he's not eating on his own yet but he's moving around a whole lot more and his color has returned... no more dark blackish coloring. he pooped today...right in my hand, so the "watery part" ran down my hand and right after that the rest came "bombing out". The funny thing is that I was putting him in the shower for a nice steam bath. i know we're not out of the woods yet... but I think I see the light. One or two more days and he'll be back. I think the biggest thing that makes me know he's coming back is that he's getting mad at me.

 

[Elizadolots]

I think the biggest thing that makes me know he's coming back is that he's getting mad at me.

Yup...an angry cham has some energy and spark...a cham that isn't mad at you for messing with him doesn't feel good.

 

[pssh]

So wait, when did you get back? Has he only been like this with the new light? If so, try turning it off for a few days and see what happens. If he was acting ill before you changed the lamp, then don't worry about it.

When you say steam bath, what do you mean? The water should only be luke warm and not hot.