I know I'm going to get yelled at for doing this...

[ferretinmyshoes]

I've never heard it happen. Please inform me with links of cases if you please.

No offense, but you're also not in the veterinary field. I'd love to give you links to cases, but as we've already discussed those studies are lacking. It doesn't mean they don't exist, it's just from individual clients, not published documentation. Since it is my job to learn about these kinds of things you're just going have to trust me and the experienced, board certified veterinarians that see this kind of stuff in real life. One of those vets worked with Dr. Mader (the author of the best reptile medicine text there is) and told me about their experience together treating iguanas with MBD with dog/cat food. It worked to help their MBD short term but then they all died from renal failure and gout later.

 

[ChameleonRave]

Stefan I'm sure that you know many peoples thoughts on this.. Mine are against feeding another animal to another. But in all honesty, they would eat one or two in their lifetime out in the wild. They might eat a gecko or another small Chameleon. I think you know what is best for your chameleon, and if other people have a problem with it, they can shove it where the sun don't shine. But stick to the insects for now. lol I would love to see some update pics of your critters!

Zac

 

[DavidBuchan]

No offense, but you're also not in the veterinary field............lol - did you work that out because he's 14 or do you know him?....... I'd love to give you links to cases, but as we've already discussed those studies are lacking. It doesn't mean they don't exist, it's just from individual clients, not published documentation....... you are quoting anecdotal evidence then?........ Since it is my job to learn about these kinds of things you're just going have to trust me and the experienced, board certified veterinarians that see this kind of stuff in real life. One of those vets worked with Dr. Mader (the author of the best reptile medicine text there is)......the 'argument from authority' is quite the cop out ......... and told me about their experience together treating iguanas with MBD with dog/cat food. It worked to help their MBD short term but then they all died from renal failure and gout later.

Purple highlights all mine - you have not helped your case much with this post, are you just getting bored of the thread because we've all taken the warning on board or are you actually now trying to persuade us to do it your way?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Purple highlights all mine - you have not helped your case much with this post, are you just getting bored of the thread because we've all taken the warning on board or are you actually now trying to persuade us to do it your way?

Yeah I figured you'd be all over that one. It's not really anecdotal evidence, it's medical data - I just don't have access to the records. I'm digging through resources now and have contacted several of the vets to try to get real evidence for you. Hopefully I'll get responses soon. I'm not trying to do anything but answer Stefan's questions. Yes I know his age, but it would be rude to tell him he's just a kid. I was trying to be nice about it but it would be silly for me to decide something in your field of work doesn't exist just because I've never heard of it. I've already said you can take my advice or leave it, but this is a place for discussion no? I can still talk all I want about a subject I'm interested in, as can you. I don't think Stefan is trying to be rude or anything, I think he's just trying to learn more about this subject, as we all are.

 

[ChameleonRave]

Yeah I figured you'd be all over that one. It's not really anecdotal evidence, it's medical data - I just don't have access to the records. I'm digging through resources now and have contacted several of the vets to try to get real evidence for you. Hopefully I'll get responses soon. I'm not trying to do anything but answer Stefan's questions. Yes I know his age, but it would be rude to tell him he's just a kid. I was trying to be nice about it but it would be silly for me to decide something in your field of work doesn't exist just because I've never heard of it. I've already said you can take my advice or leave it, but this is a place for discussion no? I can still talk all I want about a subject I'm interested in, as can you. I don't think Stefan is trying to be rude or anything, I think he's just trying to learn more about this subject, as we all are.[/QU

VERY nicely worded. You obviously have the knowledge on this subject and I think that we should all respect it. Everyone has their thoughts and opinions, there are at times that a Chameleon might be out in the wild munching down a small gecko, but that might be just because there aren't any insects around and it hasn't eaten in days, it might just be a survival tactic. Now I know next to nothing on the affects that can come along with chameleons eating a rodent, but I know if I where put in that position that I would not want to feed a rodent to any insectivore that I own. They are afterall insectivores and that is what they are meant to eat? I don't question any of your proof, because you obviously have showed us some nice proof. I doubt that it will have any affect on Clea, especially if she has the correct setup and is healthy. I guess if someone feeds a rodent like Stefan has done, is all up to the owner. I think that Stefan just wanted to share his experience with us all and put a little bit more diversity into what we have all read and learned about. I actually am glad that I am able to read about this experience.. But that is my opinion, but heck everybody has one right?

 

[DavidBuchan]

Yeah, very nicely worded - I've enjoyed the discussion and I'm going to be more patient before I feed my chams their first mice. I'm planning on weaning my monitor slowly too because I know the dangers of overfeeding the little scamps.........
You know what, it was probably because I'm a bit tired now that I asked if you were bored of the discussion. I'm well happy to use this forum as a resource to help me learn and to inspire me......and it's especially useful to get your professional opinion, so thanks for your patience

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Actually chameleons feeding on vertebrates in the wild has been documented by Ardi Abate of the CIN. In her travels to Madagascar she observed F.pardalis and F.oustaleti feeding on vertebrates. With frequent feeding on vertebrates happening from F.oustaleti. The species was even documented feeding on a good size sub adult F.pardalis. This has been documented in the CIN journals and if everyone wants to read about this the CIN journals would be a great place to research (Even though some of the journals may be tough to come by). It has been suspected that other larger species such as C. parsonii, F. verrucosus, T. melleri may occasionally feed on vertebrates in the wild.

There are some experienced keepers (members) that occasionally supplemental feed vertebrates to their chameleons.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Actually chameleons feeding on vertebrates in the wild has been documented by Ardi Abate of the CIN. In her travels to Madagascar she observed F.pardalis and F.oustaleti feeding on vertebrates. With frequent feeding on vertebrates happening from F.oustaleti. The species was even documented feeding on a good size sub adult F.pardalis. This has been documented in the CIN journals and if everyone wants to read about this the CIN journals would be a great place to research (Even though some of the journals may be tough to come by). It has been suspected that other larger species such as C. parsonii, F. verrucosus, T. melleri may occasionally feed on vertebrates in the wild.

Interesting! This is what I've been asking for. Hope I can access these articles somehow...

 

[bridgofaith]

Dr. Alfonso just happened to post this to his blog tonight among several other great articles:
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/06/vertebrate-prey-for-chameleons-good-or-bad/

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Haha, Dr. Alfonso has the fastest response time EVER! He was one of the vets I contacted for more info on this and he's already written an entire blog post about it! I believe it correlates well to the general consensus we've come to - check it out:

http://www.ivanalfonso.com/

Edit: Bridgofaith beat me to it

 

[bridgofaith]

Haha, Dr. Alfonso has the fastest response time EVER! He was one of the vets I contacted for more info on this and he's already written an entire blog post about it! I believe it correlates well to the general consensus we've come to - check it out:

http://www.ivanalfonso.com/

Edit: Bridgofaith beat me to it

No doubt, he is fast! lol I asked him to do one for wild caught feeders only a couple hours ago, and it's already up!

 

[Elizadolots]

I haven't read through it all since my last post, but really...

It's pretty obvious that chameleons in the wild will eat food that is the right size and "interesting" to them...meaning it might well be a baby chameleon or a mouse, or a small bird if the chameleon is large enough.

It's sort of silly to suggest there's anything wrong with occasionally letting a chameleon of size eat a small mammal.

It's beyond silly, to me, to suggest that crickets are not animals.

Also, from what I've read, insects are really high in protein which is the supposed problematic issue on gout (though, gout is caused by uric acid...maybe there's a causal link between protein and uric acid that I'm not aware of).

To me, the issue is fat. Mammals are generally fattier than insects. If I had an animal that needed to bulk up, I wouldn't hesitate to feed a pinky (assuming the animal was large enough to eat it) . But I would view it as a "bulking up" thing and not part of the regular diet.

 

[kinyonga]

From Ivan's article..."Rodents are usually nocturnal and seek burrows of some sort to live and reproduce. Under normal conditions, a pinkie will not be out during the day, let alone out of the burrow for that matter. So a chameleon, being diurnal, will not be hunting for pinkies or rodents as part of their diet."...exactly! One of the reasons I've not used them for chameleons.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Just a point to mention everyone has been saying chameleons would not naturally come across small mammals. What if a chameleon was in a midsized bush near the ground (as some mid and large size chameleons live in this habitat (F. oustaleti)) and came across small or juvenile mammals. That situation a chameleon would likely have the opportunity to make a meal out of a small mammal (not just small reptiles and birds). Meaning feeding pinky mice theoretically could be naturally justified.

 

[kinyonga]

The mammals would have to be diurnal and in the open at some point in order for the chameleon to run across it...and small enough for the chameleon to swallow.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Its possible. At the base of a bush (chameleons habitat) normally would provide shelter/daytime cover for a small animal/mammal. Plus even small mammals when they have got the cover or brush move about somewhat during the day. That is the majority of what birds of prey eat (somewhat diurnally active small mammals) here in California.

 

[CleaTheChameleon]

Thanks for Ivans link.

I truly don't know what else to say other then "Thanks for the link Heather!"

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

It's beyond silly, to me, to suggest that crickets are not animals.

A cricket averages about 20% protein, so at less than a 1/2 gram weight for a cricket you're talking about ~0.1g protein. So at 5-10 crickets a day a cham would get about 0.5-1g of protein. A neonatal mouse is ~64% protein and at or over a gram for a single pinky that would be at least .64g of protein in a single bite. So it's not that crickets aren't animals, it's just that the amount of protein is so different that I wouldn't even consider it as a concern on equal level.

Also, from what I've read, insects are really high in protein which is the supposed problematic issue on gout (though, gout is caused by uric acid...maybe there's a causal link between protein and uric acid that I'm not aware of).

Uric acid comes directly from the breakdown of the amino acids of proteins and that's all it comes from. So it's not just a casual link, it's a big one. And that's the problem I see with it. You are right about fat as well.

 

[Ekproject]

Just a correction note for the above post. If the pinkie is 64% protein and weighs a gram it would be .64 grams of protein. Not 64 grams of protein. Not trying to be a jerk. Just when i read it it confused me for a sec. So u jus wanted to clarify.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Just a correction note for the above post. If the pinkie is 64% protein and weighs a gram it would be .64 grams of protein. Not 64 grams of protein. Not trying to be a jerk. Just when i read it it confused me for a sec. So u jus wanted to clarify.

Haha, yes I forgot the decimal and thats quite a difference, thanks.