"If you need drainage for indoor habitats, you're doing it wrong!" Over watering

[ataraxia]

Using either method as far as I can see, still. Agree to disagree?

not at all or even close.

 

[ataraxia]

Cant you see by my avatar my chameleons breathe fire. Do you think someone that can handle fire breathing chameleons agrees to disagree? You will put drainage on his set up and you will smile while doing it!

EDit: they also have big white pointy teeth.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Adequate hydration is critical and certainly there is a wide variety of application methods that are "effective". Somewhere though in this one or two members have equated, not having drainage, to not having enough water.

That is false.

Because each set-up is unique in itself, the duration and quantity needs to be adjusted accordingly. Temperature, airflow, and relative humidity determine the evaporation rate. So if you really dial in your habitats then wasted water and drainage isn't necessary. AND you will still have hydrated very healthy chameleons.

For captive indoor habitats, wet and saturated environments have always caused my chams MORE health problems versus dryer enclosures. Just food for thought.

 

[ataraxia]

Wet saturated environments caused from what missing part?

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Wet saturated environments caused from what missing part?

Using too much water (Rookie Mistake) and I made it.

Balance is whats needed, not drains.
My environments are 100 percent living, the chameleons couldn't be healthier (unless they were in the wild). Lots of water but not too much.

Well hydrated T.Peretti

Generations of healthy hydrated Chams.

Others compensate for the lack of balance with mechanical band aids such as drains.

Balance.....

 

[Lovereps]

I would have to disagree completely with that statement, in my personal experience and opinion chameleons benefit from long mistings, at least once a day. Mine will regularly sit under the mist for a good 5+ minutes with their eyes closed and their face pointed into the nozzle, just soaking. And they have the option to escape it, I don't aim the nozzle so everything gets soaked, I allow for their basking branch to stay dry. Besides them, I have a lot of plants to keep alive in there - misting less means I have to manually water the plants, which will need drainage anyway. Misting more keeps both my chams and my plants alive and happy.

I don't know how little is the minimum you could get away with, but that sounds like a silly game to play. What, apparently is the "right" method?

Olimpia, that is exactly what I do---leave them a basking area large enough to avoid the mist if they want to stay out of it.
Having montane species--Jackson's and K. multis--they are very often found facing into the mist, enjoying it--sometimes drinking, sometimes not.

I'm fairly lazy, so everything that can be automated is--such as watering the plants as well as the chams.
I also think that a good thorough soaking of the cham and its environment is closer to what exists in nature.
Dust gets washed away, tiny bits of shed skin, little pieces of urate, etc, that would otherwise remain to potentially cause problems.
It's not a substitute for regular cleanings but it does help to keep things a bit more sanitary in between cleanings.
I'd rather spend a few extra bucks on "unnecessary" amounts of water than for the chams to be lacking something that can benefit them.
Of course good drainage is essential.

 

[Lovereps]

Cant you see by my avatar my chameleons breathe fire. Do you think someone that can handle fire breathing chameleons agrees to disagree? You will put drainage on his set up and you will smile while doing it!

EDit: they also have big white pointy teeth.

Ataraxia, I was just wondering what type of flameproof, puncture-proof armor you don if one of your chams needs medicine?
I thought that my cham Gator was a bit snappy, but yours is just downright terrifying

 

[ataraxia]

Ataraxia, I was just wondering what type of flameproof, puncture-proof armor you don if one of your chams needs medicine?
I thought that my cham Gator was a bit snappy, but yours is just downright terrifying

Heck i dont handle these chameleons. Thats what the wifes for.

 

[leedragon]

well I am no an expert in any matters but I have read here and there that fan are not good for some chameleon species or to be more precisely the airflows are not good for them, but what is your experiens on this one, have you use fans in chams cages?

also if you can put a drainage hole in the cage why not do it, my experiense is standing water isn´t good, and one may always wont be able to balance the watter as good as you, I know I wouldn´t be able to do it all the time

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I agree wholeheartedly with solid snake's suggestion. However, I do now have to go and clean up some of the posts as they are not appropriate. I am also monitoring this thread very closely now. For future posters: stick to the subject at hand with reasonings behind your logic. If you are not contributing to the thread in a constructive way your post may be deleted. This was a good thread until someone decided it was more fun to troll. Keep it on topic.

 

[Mmcbain1]

Wow I wanted a little more information on hydration and I started reading this thread perhaps an hour ago. I think to sum up what I have learned I would say....

There is no foreseeable problems with overwatering a chameleon as long as the water does not stay with the chameleon creating a hazardous condition for respiratory problems.

I also learned from chameleopatric that there are many ways to meet the hydration needs of your chameleon without always having to resort to the use of a drainage system.

The use of foggers I never found to be very popular or liked but this may be something to reconsider.

....... so where is the cup feeding thread hoj will you start that one too.

 

[trumpetmonkey]

great topic

Preamble: I am new to chameleons. I've been keeping and breeding mammals all my life. Amazon parrots as well.

We all want to replicate environments that animals experience in the wild, which is admirable. How many dogs and cats are stuffed in cages? We will never be able to replicate the environments chameleons come from. Its diverse to say the least.

I have a mistking, I don't use it. Automating any of your chameleon chores doesn't seem engaged...do you automate dog and cat watering? In the natural environment, does it only rain from one spot? (I.e. the misting head?)

Drainage, I don't use any. I have live, topical plants. I mist all my chams by hand. Their basking branch gets sprayed, they get sprayed and the plant gets sprayed. Tropical plants have there own drainage...big leaves. All my plants are dripping from all levels. (I like dracaena). Enough water drips like a dripper, and I see everyone drink. Some from leaves, some from the drips. Everyone has white urate.

I have only 1 cham who goes and sits under the mister, for him, I stand and mist a little longer so he can shower. All my chams are in one room, I have tropical plants all around which also get misted, for ambient humidity. I get the room and enclosures up to 90% humidity, and by the time afternoon misting comes, the floor is dry, but the lower leaves still have water drops on them. The average humidity is usually no lower than 50% by then.

I also use garden soil, nosy potting soil, it dries out incredibly quickly, so, something less to worry about.

These aren't fish. If your mister has a flow rate of 2 liters a minute (which most do) then, a 10 minute misting is 20 liters of water. If you multiply that twice a day for a year, the equivalent annual rainfall in your enclosures are nearly 800 inches. Far more than in the wild.

If my house is dry on a particular day, I will make sure the humidity gets up there. and provide drippers as well. If it's humid on a particular day, I'll do my regular misting duties. If a particular cham doesn't have white urate, I'll hydrate and mist according to that cham.

I've jumped in because I've wondered about drainage. I done use any, and after this, I don't think I will.unless something changes of course.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I live in Denver where ambient humidity is very low naturally. We're talking around 20% on most days, and I also have heating on right now (because it's friggin cold!) which further dries out the air. I have to run my MistKing more often for the purposes of humidity (even with a humidifier also in the room running intermittently) more than just hydration. Is that more rainfall than the native environment? Of course it is, but my captive environment is already very far from natural due to the climate of where I live. So of course, I need a drainage system to cope with that type of setup. The misting heads only point to a corner of the cage so my chams can chose whether or not they want to be in the mist, and some chose to walk into it and enjoy. I used to have reptile carpet at the bottom of my cages so the water from the dripper was soaked up by that and I made sure it dried completely each day. When I moved here I needed more water for humidity purposes so the carpet was too drenched and thus a health hazard. And taking it out allowed puddles of stagnant water to form...and thus the creation of drainage. It's a necessity for trying to create a more natural environment.

I really don't think there is a right or wrong way to do this. It really depends on the individual animals, cage setup and ambient environment.

 

[Decadancin]

So, I again say that I have (thus far) maintained a healthy chameleon with bright white urate and no signs of dehydration with NO drainage system. So I have decided to explore this other side of the discussion so I can see what my boy "wants" and "likes". I will have to install a drainage system of some sort, but was going to do this if I used any live plants anyway. So either way I will have a lot of options . I again love the many different ideas and thoughts on the proper way to do things, and will not respond until I have the other side to talk about . Thanks to all who have participated!!!

 

[Mmcbain1]

We just have to stay on topic

 

[Olimpia]

I have the Mistking hooked up to 4 cages right now, and set to do about 30 minutes of water daily and I can guarantee you that I don't go through 15 gallons of water a day. My reservoir is a 5 gal bucket and that lasts pretty much all day. So I'm not sure where those numbers are coming from but that's not what my system is doing.

 

[Hoj]

I have a mistking, I don't use it. Automating any of your chameleon chores doesn't seem engaged...do you automate dog and cat watering? In the natural environment, does it only rain from one spot? (I.e. the misting head?)



These aren't fish. If your mister has a flow rate of 2 liters a minute (which most do) then, a 10 minute misting is 20 liters of water. If you multiply that twice a day for a year, the equivalent annual rainfall in your enclosures are nearly 800 inches. Far more than in the wild.

So I disagree with these two statements

First I think automation is the key to many successfull setup myself inc. between the 16 cages and 50hrs of work a week I could not keep my chams healthy without it.
Yes in the wild it does rain from "one spot" THE SKY

second the mister is not only used to imitate rainfall there is moring dew and humidity that are controlled throught the use of the mister.

Finally drainage is never a bad idea. If you dont need it then it wont effect you but if you do need it, its there. Even in the case of a timer malfunction it can save floors ect.

 

[DavidBuchan]

You kids are kidding me? I'm never going to the pub again lol...............

I didn't mist Rinty yesterday. Today I misted as long as he wanted - I am sure. He did eye cleaning and a bit of drinking for the first 3 mins. After that he just sat until I stopped.......... Then he licked his lips so I sprayed more but he didn't drink........ Then I stopped so he licked his lips etc....... All in all I misted for 15 mins and he wasn't 'drinking' for 12 of those mins. As has been mentioned, Veileds may be an exception to 'usual care of captive chameleons'


I still got a wet carpet though..... (see pics lol )

I think this perfectly illustrates the need to tailor any misting you do to your own environment, and to the species of cham you keep. Drainage wouldn't be a bad idea if you have carpets in your house .
Of course, it is possible to keep chameleons in excellent condition in a variety of ways, and this hobby of ours is still as much art as science....you can be a water engineer, I'll be filthy rocknroll.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fYlBxL0vN8 ...Was there anything else?

 

[Hoj]

Nice post Dave

 

[Decadancin]

So, after reading this entire thread... which took about an hour... He He, I have noticed that I don't think the question was answered .

I still stand by my drainage system and since starting this thread I have upped my misting and have seen positive results.

I have not "seen" any actual results from the increased misting or by adding drainage, mostly due to Zaphod's avoidance of the misting. I rarely see him drinking, and when I do it is generally only a small droplet or two. I was curious to see if he would enjoy longer sessions, but he did not.

All drink/benefit from long mistings or even a long dripper session which requires drainage.
Disagree all you want but until you try and see for yourself. Dont speak from what you read or your lack of...Instead of making it work for you, think of what the animal should have.

I know you did specify the possible exception of veileds, and this is exactly what I found to be true. My boy does not drink (that I can see) during mistings. He prefers to drink right after from the leaves and vines. This is why longer sessions would not be necessary in my situation. I was inspired by your challenge though, and am glad I tried!

Adequate hydration is critical and certainly there is a wide variety of application methods that are "effective". Somewhere though in this one or two members have equated, not having drainage, to not having enough water.
That is false.
Because each set-up is unique in itself, the duration and quantity needs to be adjusted accordingly. Temperature, airflow, and relative humidity determine the evaporation rate. So if you really dial in your habitats then wasted water and drainage isn't necessary. AND you will still have hydrated very healthy chameleons.
For captive indoor habitats, wet and saturated environments have always caused my chams MORE health problems versus dryer enclosures. Just food for thought.

I do agree with this!

So, I again say that I have (thus far) maintained a healthy chameleon with bright white urate and no signs of dehydration with NO drainage system. So I have decided to explore this other side of the discussion so I can see what my boy "wants" and "likes". I will have to install a drainage system of some sort, but was going to do this if I used any live plants anyway. So either way I will have a lot of options . I again love the many different ideas and thoughts on the proper way to do things, and will not respond until I have the other side to talk about . Thanks to all who have participated!!!

So I have added drainage to Zaphod's enclosure and experimented with longer misting duration. I also added live plants to the cage. I posted to my blog with some pics and my results.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/decadancin/807-mist-not-mist-not-exactly-question.html
Hope you can check it out . I will say that this thread can be summed up with the following statement...

Finally drainage is never a bad idea. If you dont need it then it wont effect you but if you do need it, its there.