hayleycole
New Member
i am still very new here. i am currently using a glass cage for my jackson chameleon. i noticed there was some very moist parts of the bottom of his cage yesterday. can someone explain how you set up the drainage system?
"If you need drainage for indoor habitats, you're doing it wrong!" Over watering
- Thread starter Hoj
- Start date
you can't setup a drainage system in a glass cage yourself (I am going to assume you are not skilled in drilling glass). however, if you wish to use the glass tank and water heavily, then you need to get a drainage hole drilled in the bottom to start and then attach piping, etc. Alternatively, with some practice, it is possible to water "just enough" so that the tank doesn't flood out, but this is not necessarily easy to do as a beginner.
Feel free to PM me if you need more specific details on that.
Also, if you are using a glass setup, what is your substrate? Do you have a drainage layer? What soil are you using? Not all dirt is the same
Feel free to PM me if you need more specific details on that.
Also, if you are using a glass setup, what is your substrate? Do you have a drainage layer? What soil are you using? Not all dirt is the same
Chameleopatrick
New Member
I love a good discussion...
RoskaL
New Member
I love a good discussion...
Start one on cup feeding lol I read the first few pages on my phone but things got argumentative so I skipped to the end
Love your ideas about over watering and I completely agree with you
I'm still trying to master the art myself
But yes I cup feed but only because ivy moved into my gfs and its the only way I can control the crix from getting out and roaming the house, which i can tell you doesn't go down well!
I love watching Boris go on the hunt but as it stands its not as practical
I'm going to design a new cage/tank for him soon and make it fully sealed so I can get him hunting again
Chameleopatrick
New Member
fluxlizard
Avid Member
It just depends on the method you are using and what you are trying to accomplish.
20 years ago I started out breeding in glass tanks with no drainage. I used one of those gallon misters that you pump up for pressure and spray insecticides and stuff with for misting and I misted for a few seconds lightly morning and night lightly for humidity and provided a drip cup and a catch bowl for water. Worked great- chameleons looked great and did great and bred great. My chams mostly drank from the drip.
Later on I was acclimating chameleons and found they were very responsive to very fine, almost fogging mist left on for a few hours at a time in large enclosures with drainaige systems. This got me interested mist nozzles and I started using a mist system to provide drinking water.
Personally, I feel my chameleons are much more responsive to the mist, than to the moisture mist leaves behind on the leaves. Given the choice, they prefer to go sit in the mist and drink the water out of the air as it hits them most of the time rather than drinking the water left behind on the leaves after the mist goes off.
I've also noticed that they sometimes wait a few minutes before actually venturing into the mist to start drinking.
I've also noticed that they perhaps clean their eyes when they are in the mist. Although that observation is taken with a grain of salt. Everyone always says that is what they are doing, but it could be they've got water in their eyes so they respond involuntarily kind of like we might rub water out of our eyes. At any rate it doesn't appear to bother them much- they happily enter the mist time after time.
Because of those observations, I personally prefer longer misting sessions and drainage. Indoors I do 1 or 2 sessions per day of 20-30 minutes depending on species. I also like the fact that their skin is rinsed regularly and fecal matter is rinsed off from furniture, etc.
I used to water babies by misting every few hours in a glass tank (mist lightly, wait until complete evaporation, mist again lightly wait and so on). With the longer mist times I find 20-30 minutes 1x per day for species like veileds and panthers provides all they need to remain well hydrated in screen enclosures.
With 20-30 minute mist times, drainage is necessary. And lengthy times don't necessarily mean the cage won't dry out between mistings. Outdoors I use misters much of the afternoon for some species to control temperature in part of the enclosures (I offer options- they can choose to be wet or dry mist doesn't cover the entire enclosure). They dry out completely before use again the next day even though they are on for up to several hours on days that climb up near 100 degrees.
There is no right or wrong about drainage. Either way will work. What makes something right or wrong is whether it benefits or harms the chameleon. Done properly and with observation of the effect on the animals, either method will work.
20 years ago I started out breeding in glass tanks with no drainage. I used one of those gallon misters that you pump up for pressure and spray insecticides and stuff with for misting and I misted for a few seconds lightly morning and night lightly for humidity and provided a drip cup and a catch bowl for water. Worked great- chameleons looked great and did great and bred great. My chams mostly drank from the drip.
Later on I was acclimating chameleons and found they were very responsive to very fine, almost fogging mist left on for a few hours at a time in large enclosures with drainaige systems. This got me interested mist nozzles and I started using a mist system to provide drinking water.
Personally, I feel my chameleons are much more responsive to the mist, than to the moisture mist leaves behind on the leaves. Given the choice, they prefer to go sit in the mist and drink the water out of the air as it hits them most of the time rather than drinking the water left behind on the leaves after the mist goes off.
I've also noticed that they sometimes wait a few minutes before actually venturing into the mist to start drinking.
I've also noticed that they perhaps clean their eyes when they are in the mist. Although that observation is taken with a grain of salt. Everyone always says that is what they are doing, but it could be they've got water in their eyes so they respond involuntarily kind of like we might rub water out of our eyes. At any rate it doesn't appear to bother them much- they happily enter the mist time after time.
Because of those observations, I personally prefer longer misting sessions and drainage. Indoors I do 1 or 2 sessions per day of 20-30 minutes depending on species. I also like the fact that their skin is rinsed regularly and fecal matter is rinsed off from furniture, etc.
I used to water babies by misting every few hours in a glass tank (mist lightly, wait until complete evaporation, mist again lightly wait and so on). With the longer mist times I find 20-30 minutes 1x per day for species like veileds and panthers provides all they need to remain well hydrated in screen enclosures.
With 20-30 minute mist times, drainage is necessary. And lengthy times don't necessarily mean the cage won't dry out between mistings. Outdoors I use misters much of the afternoon for some species to control temperature in part of the enclosures (I offer options- they can choose to be wet or dry mist doesn't cover the entire enclosure). They dry out completely before use again the next day even though they are on for up to several hours on days that climb up near 100 degrees.
There is no right or wrong about drainage. Either way will work. What makes something right or wrong is whether it benefits or harms the chameleon. Done properly and with observation of the effect on the animals, either method will work.
coldbloodedAL
Avid Member
PenelopeLove
New Member
So I'm relatively new in comparison to almost everyone who has has something to say and offer advice on the watering/drainage subject.. But now I'm all confused! I understand that it all depends on your individual circumstances and of course the chameleon themselves.
Personally, I'm going by the reaction I get from him and then read through given advice from the forum here just to keep a check on what I'm doing.
I have just received my mistking after noticing that Ernie loves to be misted! And I chose to get a misting system so that I can keep things routine and monitor them without being around all the time.. I have drainage trays for each cage and that's really only to allow for excess water to drain from my schefflera as I just drowned one from no drainage.
I hope I've not made bad presumptions based on my observations!
With the cup feeding subject.. My tree provides A LOT of foliage that makes it hard for me to even find Ernie sometimes haha! So I have a cup feeder for the crickets to keep an eye on how much he's eating, otherwise I tend to find some random cricket I thought he ate from a day or so before.
Would love suggestions on what I could do to improve.. I just want him to feel safe and happy
Personally, I'm going by the reaction I get from him and then read through given advice from the forum here just to keep a check on what I'm doing.
I have just received my mistking after noticing that Ernie loves to be misted! And I chose to get a misting system so that I can keep things routine and monitor them without being around all the time.. I have drainage trays for each cage and that's really only to allow for excess water to drain from my schefflera as I just drowned one from no drainage.
I hope I've not made bad presumptions based on my observations!
With the cup feeding subject.. My tree provides A LOT of foliage that makes it hard for me to even find Ernie sometimes haha! So I have a cup feeder for the crickets to keep an eye on how much he's eating, otherwise I tend to find some random cricket I thought he ate from a day or so before.
Would love suggestions on what I could do to improve.. I just want him to feel safe and happy
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
You have done nothing wrong. Plenty of people with years, if not decades, of experience with chameleons believe and utilize longer misting sessions and as a result use drainage. That is fine and you're definitely not doing anything "wrong." If your chameleon loves water (which species like Jackson's and Meller's definitely DO, among others) then there's no harm in letting the Mistking run for longer than a few seconds. Not all chameleons respond well to drippers, so using one may not be as stimulating to chameleons as mist/spraying.
That said, I don't mist my Transvaal very much because he's more sensitive to prolonged high humidity and isn't a fan of water. So it really does depend on so many things. But for everyone else, I'm still a believer in providing lots of water if they seem to want it. My Meller's alone can drink for 20-30 minutes a day, easily! You just have to make sure your humidity isn't through the roof all day, every day.
There's really very little in this hobby where one size fits all.
So, after reading this entire thread... which took about an hour... He He, I have noticed that I don't think the question was answered
. So even though I love the sarcasm and clever responses, and would love to insert some here, I will attempt to answer this with a well thought out and clear answer. I probably supply less water than 93% (a totally made up number
) of the keepers out there, but I will say that due to the fact that I do not currently have any live plants in the enclosure (an argument for another thread ) I do not require quite as much as some may. I only mist (using MistKing) 4 times each day, first two for 30 seconds, third for 60 seconds, and the fourth for 30 seconds. Having said all that, I do not currently have a drainage system. (This was the original point, right? ) I do use a mat at the bottom of the enclosure so the water does not pool up and cause issues, and swap the mat out every couple of days to keep it clean. This is resulting in great humidity levels for my veiled and it is working for me! Zaphod does not enjoy mistings, and I would be curious if a rain dome would be better, but that is for another day's topic . Urates are bright white and so far, so good. I will say that because I am dealing with a veiled, I did decide to offer some greens each day as a source of hydration, and he does like this on occasion. I'm not sure if I would be comfortable doing any less than these four mist sessions, but depending on relative humidity, you probably could. Thanks Chameleopatrick for resurrecting this thread, and Hoj for starting it. This was a lot of fun .
fluxlizard
Avid Member
LOL thank heavens for someone above clever responses and sarcasm who can provide something well thought out and clear. Oh wait that's sarcasm. Let's try clever then-
Here is my clear answer- If your substrate is soggy you need a drainage system.
If your cage doesn't dry out between sessions, you need to mist less often or less time when you do mist or both.
If your lizard then starts to look dehydrated as a result, you need to fix your cage or your misters or your drainage system or try a drip system along with or all of the above so you can give your lizard what it needs, instead of your cage situation what your cage needs.
Nobody can tell you mist 30 secs 3 times a day and expect you to have the same results in every situation. Because it all depends on your enclosure, your ambient humidity, your substrate, the flowrate of your mist nozzle, the species of chameleon you are keeping, the temperature in your terrarium which will effect your evaporation rate, etc.
One size does not and can not fit all.
That's why I simply stated my experiences trying different things.
How's that for clever?
D
DavidBuchan
Guest
You have substrate?
haha, I mostly agree with the post above I sort of want to reply just because this was a very interesting thread. After a little more thinking I'm going to not say anything. I only ever kept Veileds. That's not enough experience with rain and drainage to make useful comment.
fluxlizard
Avid Member
No, unless you count the 17" wide pots with plants in them filled with dirt.
I guess if you don't have substrate, a puddle of water at the bottom that drowns feeders and/or never dries would indicate a need for a drainage system.
And actually, seeing as how the OP is hoj- LOL I'm a little surprised and less worried about my answer. Hoj has plenty of experience without our input. Just curious/thoughtful with this thread I guess...
D
DavidBuchan
Guest
Really? I have loads. Proper substrate. Soil, sand, stones, that sort of thing. All over the bottom of the vivariums. No 'drainage' - but I do get a wet carpet sometimes
Never did my chams any harm at all............nothing that I can measure and quantify anyway.......
Never did my chams any harm at all............nothing that I can measure and quantify anyway.......
Really? I have loads. Proper substrate. Soil, sand, stones, that sort of thing. All over the bottom of the vivariums. No 'drainage' - but I do get a wet carpet sometimes
Never did my chams any harm at all............nothing that I can measure and quantify anyway.......
Did I mention that I am really glad this thread was resurrected! He He
D
DavidBuchan
Guest
Did I mention that I am really glad this thread was resurrected! He He
So am I - it was very interesting, I wonder how I missed it before......would have been even more fun 'live'
Solid Snake
Avid Member
You were at the pub, and...it was...fun that is...
For all the "fun" I think this is one of the best discussions on watering on here. Lots of opinions, lots of experience.
After keeping thamnos, that require/desire much less water than a xanth or even panther, I can see Chameleopatricks point of view a bit better I think.
It still comes down to knowing your own situation, and knowing the requirements of the specific animal, and constant monitoring and adjusting to keep them from drying out too much, or living in too damp an environment.
With my indoor xanth setup(my wettest), I resolved to have at least a little portion of the enclosure, somewhat wet at most times, achieved by frequent misting/specific placement of nozzles in combination with specifically placed foliage. Meaning, the animal could almost always go get wet/water, but there were times I would let it dry out completely, maybe twice a week. To combat mold/mildew/fungus, I simply cleaned out and rebuilt the setup monthly.
I think no matter what, any chameleon needs a good raining now and again, but thats just been my experience.
D
DavidBuchan
Guest
My sentiments exactly. It was a great discussion. Your contribution was a particular highlight!
C
Chameleonic
Guest
Wow, that ataraxia wasnt really living up to his name at the beggining!
ataraxia [ˌætəˈræksɪə], ataraxy [ˈætəˌræksɪ]
n
(Medicine) calmness or peace of mind; emotional tranquillity
[from Greek: serenity, from ataraktos undisturbed, from a-11 + tarassein to trouble]
Fair play though, he apologized.
I guess even people with 20 years of chameleon keeping experience can be a little smug or write advice badly sometimes as well hahaha
Oh yeah, it was interesting about the drainage too.
ataraxia [ˌætəˈræksɪə], ataraxy [ˈætəˌræksɪ]
n
(Medicine) calmness or peace of mind; emotional tranquillity
[from Greek: serenity, from ataraktos undisturbed, from a-11 + tarassein to trouble]
Fair play though, he apologized.
I guess even people with 20 years of chameleon keeping experience can be a little smug or write advice badly sometimes as well hahaha
Oh yeah, it was interesting about the drainage too.
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