"If you need drainage for indoor habitats, you're doing it wrong!" Over watering

[Hoj]

Cool to see this thread up again.
I still stand by my drainage system and since starting this thread I have upped my misting and have seen positive results.
Also I use the drain water to water my plants... you should have seen the huge tomatos I got last year.
Cham poo water works great and I have dry floors

 

[ataraxia]

Wow, that ataraxia wasnt really living up to his name at the beggining!
ataraxia [ˌætəˈræksɪə], ataraxy [ˈætəˌræksɪ]
n
(Medicine) calmness or peace of mind; emotional tranquillity
[from Greek: serenity, from ataraktos undisturbed, from a-11 + tarassein to trouble]
Fair play though, he apologized.
I guess even people with 20 years of chameleon keeping experience can be a little smug or write advice badly sometimes as well hahaha
Oh yeah, it was interesting about the drainage too.

I said i was done but i lied.

Actually got the name from a song by Team Sleep The meaning is everything opposite of me.

Call me arrogant. Call me a prick. I wont deny being either but it does not and wont hinder my passion for providing the best care for these animals. From melleri, panthers, jacksons, hoehnelli, oustaleti, cristatus, montiums, pygmies to veileds, although veileds i will agree arent as needy. All drink/benefit from long mistings or even a long dripper session which requires drainage.

Tell me your urates are white and tell me you have chameleons living past 2-3 years. Disagree all you want but until you try and see for yourself. Dont speak from what you read or your lack of...Instead of making it work for you, think of what the animal should have instead of feeding your selfish ways. Go on following the mind set of "Just make them want it a little". Boy am i glad im not being cared for by someone like that.

 

[Chameleonic]

Go on following the mind set of "Just make them want it a little". Boy am i glad

If you dont see your chameleon drink. You arent doing it right.

haha, ok. That was the bit that I thought might have been written badly. Take chameleopatrics ideas and practices as a whole though.
Lots of animals can be fed to a point where they want more food but to give more would be bad for health.
In this case, chams will not 'overdrink' but there is potential for other problems (URI) with more water around. So where to put the balance? Worth discussing, certainly.


I agree with the statement in bold up to a point. 99% of chameleon are prepared to be seen drinking. Therefore you should see your cham drink (because you should be observant). The implication that someone is not right (or wrong ) is unnecessary. Also, I can't help pointing out that how much the cham chooses to drink (out of many daily options) is not really what this discussion is about. Unless I missed something important.

 

[Decadancin]

I said i was done but i lied.

Actually got the name from a song by the deftones The meaning is everything opposite of me.

Call me arrogant. Call me a prick. I wont deny being either but it does not and wont hinder my passion for providing the best care for these animals. From melleri, panthers, jacksons, hoehnelli, oustaleti, cristatus, montiums, pygmies to veileds, although veileds i will agree arent as needy. All drink/benefit from long mistings or even a long dripper session which requires drainage.

Tell me your urates are white and tell me you have chameleons living past 2-3 years. Disagree all you want but until you try and see for yourself. Dont speak from what you read or your lack of...Instead of making it work for you, think of what the animal should have instead of feeding your selfish ways. Go on following the mind set of "Just make them want it a little". Boy am i glad im not being cared for by someone like that.

If you dont see your chameleon drink. You arent doing it right.

Not sayin' that my enclosure is so like the native habitat of Yemen, but not all chams there drink that much all the time! That's why they tend to eat more greens than other species. As for not seeing your chams drink meaning not doing it right, I can not say I can see my boy all the time, and half the time I cant even find him due to the foliage that most would agree is important for many reasons. I see him drink once in a while after mister goes off, usually from the same low spot on a vine. I also know that I am usually at work when the mistings occur, so my eyesight isn't that good . So I guess what I'm wondering is what does my animal want? What is the benefit of long mistings for my specific animal? Guess I may have to figure this out with an experiment someday, but we'll see! By the way, I won't call you anything but passionate about your animals, and no one should fault you for that! I hope that every decision I make for my boy is a good one, and from the results so far, I think he is doing well. I know there is no one answer to chameleon husbandry or we would not need this forum! That's why I love the thread .

Here's to the health and well being of all our chams!!! (and to the continued questioning of that which is known to be the right way of doing things )

 

[ataraxia]

In this case, chams will not 'overdrink' but there is potential for other problems (URI) with more water around. So where to put the balance? Worth discussing, certainly.

More water around doesnt cause RI's. More water around that is not removed in a timely fashion under minimal air flow situations cause Ri's. If the water is removed VIA drainage. Under normal conditions, there is no reason a chameleon can not withstand hours of continuous misting. Example: I run my outside misters for hours during the heat of the day in the summer.

I understand chameleopatricks and others methods. I disagree with giving just enough to keep the urates white.

 

[Chameleonic]

More water around doesnt cause RI's. More water around that is not removed in a timely fashion under minimal air flow situations cause Ri's. If the water is removed VIA drainage. Under normal conditions, there is no reason a chameleon can not withstand hours of continuous misting.....
I understand chameleopatricks and others methods. I disagree with giving just enough to keep the urates white.

You disagree with that, but you are prepared to force your poor chams to 'withstand' misting jk lol
Seriously though. Other than that you say they drink more (I don't know how you measured this btw), have you seen health benefits to your chams from all the lovely water you give them?
Since you understand the methods so well, have you tried them? Were chameleopatricks results confirmed or not?

 

[ataraxia]

although veileds i will agree arent as needy. All drink/benefit from long mistings or even a long dripper session which requires drainage.

So I guess what I'm wondering is what does my animal want? What is the benefit of long mistings for my specific animal? Guess I may have to figure this out with an experiment someday, but we'll see! By the way, I won't call you anything but passionate about your animals, and no one should fault you for that! I hope that every decision I make for my boy is a good one, and from the results so far, I think he is doing well.

I do agree a veileds demands are not as much as a panthers and can tolerate extremes better than most species BUT i do witness long drinking sessions with them as well. My statement in bold was removed because i need to realize many dont manually hand mist 15 adults along with 4 clutches. Not all babies tend to drink at every misting. I can say this for 100% though All of my adults, except my veileds i see drink every day.

I also hope you make the right decision.

 

[ataraxia]

Seriously though. Other than that you say they drink more (I don't know how you measured this btw), have you seen health benefits to your chams from all the lovely water you give them?

I do manually spray. I see when it starts and when it ends I didnt always do it this way.

Seriously though. Other than that you say they drink more (I don't know how you measured this btw), have you seen health benefits to your chams from all the lovely water you give them?
Since you understand the methods so well, have you tried them? Were chameleopatricks results confirmed or not?

I do understand the methods and have tried it. Once you try the two methods, make the decision. Witness this...Watch the misting stop and the chameleon be forced to quit drinking just 40 seconds into drinking. How about that 12 oz cup of coke you just got to go with your lunch. Im going to take all but 4 ounces of it because I SAID SO. I just might give it to you in an hour or so. When you witness your chameleon for the first time drinking for minutes on end . You realize huh, i have been restricting what he truly wants all along. NOT jus twhat he needs to survive BUT what he/she wants.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I actually watched that happen with my veiled today...by the time he started really drinking the misters turned off. They're set to run for several minutes but after seeing him get cut off (and before even reading this thread) I changed my settings to much longer misting sessions every other day. I have definitely seen much happier chams since getting my mistking. I expect to see more when I up the mistings. You can't really overwater an animal because they just don't drink if they dont want to. But chronic underlying dehydration is one of the top causes for captive reptile disease and death. Provided you have appropriate drainage I don't think there is such a thing as too much.

 

[Hoj]

Ferrit I could not agree more.

 

[Chameleonic]

Witness this...Watch the misting stop and the chameleon be forced to quit drinking just 40 seconds into drinking. How about that 12 oz cup of coke you just got to go with your lunch. Im going to take all but 4 ounces of it because I SAID SO. I just might give it to you in an hour or so. When you witness your chameleon for the first time drinking for minutes on end . You realize huh, i have been restricting what he truly wants all along. NOT jus twhat he needs to survive BUT what he/she wants.

Bad analogy imo, due to the drippers. This brings up the interesting question of desire (what the cham wants/ how much does he want it?). If he doesn't want it enough to go to the conveniently located water source he doesn't want it imo. I water my cham for 10 mins sometimes. Usually he stops long before that. Sometimes he drinks longer than usual - but with less and less enthusiasm.
So, desire. A rat can be trained to run through a maze to find a peanut. Much harder to train it using lettuce. Both foods, different level of desire for the food.

I actually watched that happen with my veiled today...by the time he started really drinking the misters turned off. They're set to run for several minutes but after seeing him get cut off (and before even reading this thread) I changed my settings to much longer misting sessions every other day. I have definitely seen much happier chams since getting my mistking. I expect to see more when I up the mistings. You can't really overwater an animal because they just don't drink if they dont want to. But chronic underlying dehydration is one of the top causes for captive reptile disease and death. Provided you have appropriate drainage I don't think there is such a thing as too much.

Don't mean to sound confrontational (well, maybe a tiny bit, it's all in fun tho)
Do you have a dripper? Did he go to it? How does a vet measure the happiness of a lizard? Anthropomorphic much?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I don't see how me being a vet really has any relevance here other than I know about the health problems of chameleons caused by chronic low level dehydration. And 'happy' would equate to being more active, having healthy bowel movements, etc. Saying happy doesn't mean he giving me high fives or not writing sad things in his diary... My veiled does have a dripper but refuses to use it, so misting is the only way to keep him hydrated. Clearly it's been enough to keep him alive this long but the mark of a good keeper is to want to provide the best for your animals, not just the minimum to survive imo. I don't see how you can really advise people to water less for any real reason. There's no logic there.

Confrontation is the mark of a man who knows he has no ground to stand on. Your argument is getting increasingly weaker. You're just arguing for fun now instead of having a logical discussion and I'm not interested.

 

[Chameleonic]

Confrontation is the mark of a man who knows he has no ground to stand on. Your argument is getting increasingly weaker. You're just arguing for fun now instead of having a logical discussion and I'm not interested.

Not necessarily - I feel I can back up everything I have been prepared to say. I agree with a lot of what you said obviously. I wouldn't have asked the questions if I wasn't interested in your answers. I probably shouldn't have used the word confrontational but I am having fun

 

[Chameleonic]

I don't see how you can really advise people to water less for any real reason. There's no logic there.

I didn't. I am thinking out load. I never advised anyone to do anything.

 

[LitldevlblueBar]

Well I was gunna start my own little post but we are already on the subject I might as well add to it and see what kinda help I can get. My Cham is very timid and when the misters kicks on he runs away. And when I try to mist him with a bottle he runs away as well. So my Monsoon RS 400 does it for me every two hours for 30 seconds. But the question I have is my Monsoon seems to be acting kinda funny. It sprays every two hours but sumtimes itll randomly spray every 15-20 mins ??!?!?!???%^%?$#&^# I dont get it whats going on here I have the Time set for 2 Hours and duration set for 30 seconds ? WHy in the world is it going off 15 mins after the last misting ?!?!?!?! CAN SOMEONE PLEASE HELP. Also Last question. I am giving my cham Distilled Water bought from the store but filling up the automatic mister and the dripper is killing my wallet I just opened my 4th gallon of water to fill the mister and dripper since TUESDAY!!!!!!. Does anyone have any ideas or tips that I can do with saving money and producing my own water? Any tips would be helpful

 

[ataraxia]

This brings up the interesting question of desire (what the cham wants/ how much does he want it?). If he doesn't want it enough to go to the conveniently located water source he doesn't want it imo. I water my cham for 10 mins sometimes. Usually he stops long before that. Sometimes he drinks longer than usual - but with less and less enthusiasm.

It is as simple as giving them the opportunity to get as much as they want. I know you have enough sense to know they cant communicate "Umm, can i have 5ml of water please. k thanks". Whats the longest you have observed your chameleon drink? That should tell you what to base your times off of. Will he drink from this amount of time every single time? I highly doubt it but it is available if he decided he wants too.

 

[LitldevlblueBar]

"Don't even get me started on cup feeding.... "

I would LOVE to hear what you have to say about cup feeding!! I find it odd to put thier bugs in a cup (I do have one for when I go on vacation to help the pet sitter). What cham in nature gets its bug from a cup!? I am a huge fan of them "hunting" for exercise, environmental enrichment etc...I can't think of a bad side to hunting, unless the cham is incapacitated in some way. What is your take on this? I also find it amusing that most ppl do not recommend cup feeding a young cham...if a teeny tiny baby can hunt down its food, so can a healthy adult!

I am finding these debates very interesting as I find having to mess with water all the time tedious...I feel like I should perhaps have fish not arboreal reptiles! I may have to find a happy medium as I also agree with Olimpia on trying to mimic thier natural habitat as much as I possibly can, this is a great thread!

I like your argument. But for me its a little easier and cleaner to cup feed. I put my crickets in a cut open milk bottle I saw in a youtube video. Because my cham eats different amounts at different times I give him 6 crickets in the morning and sometimes when i get home they are all gone and sometimes like today he only ate three and wasnt interested in the others. But ate the 3 butter worms that I put on his branch. My last chameleon I had would eat some and let the rest walk around hit cage and over his body....... And I just didnt want my cham getting bit or anything stupid like that while im at work and the milk jug seems to keep the crickets in line. So cup feeding seems to work for me. Although some do jump out from time to time and hes HOT ON THEIR TRAIL and BAM it in his mouth. But I just dont wanna go through the hassle of picking up the dead ones at the bottom of the cage and sifting through the leaves to find the dead ones that havent hit the floor yet.......

 

[Olimpia]

I feel like you're trying to find reasons to justify not watering as much and I just have to ask, why? If you provide extra water one day that the chameleon isn't really thirsty, then who cares? Especially if you have drainage in place, the water goes away, the cage dries up, and no one is worse for wear. But not providing enough water on a day the chameleon wants it could be much worse in the long run. Remember that by the time you're thirsty you're already dehydrated, the body does a really poor job at letting you know that you want water before you reach that point.

Not all chameleons respond to the dripper, therefore mist becomes the only way to water said animal.

 

[Chameleonic]

but it is available if he decided he wants too.

Using either method as far as I can see, still. Agree to disagree?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I feel like you're trying to find reasons to justify not watering as much and I just have to ask, why? If you provide extra water one day that the chameleon isn't really thirsty, then who cares? Especially if you have drainage in place, the water goes away, the cage dries up, and no one is worse for wear. But not providing enough water on a day the chameleon wants it could be much worse in the long run. Remember that by the time you're thirsty you're already dehydrated, the body does a really poor job at letting you know that you want water before you reach that point.

Not all chameleons respond to the dripper, therefore mist becomes the only way to water said animal.

Exactly.

You're arguing against overwatering but that's really not an argument worth having so I don't get it.