Is this normal Cham behavior? Is he sick?

[Astred]

Hi!
I just joined the thread as I got a new Cham (first ever in captivity). Eugene is a male veiled cham around 4-5months about 5 days ago from PetSmart. I bought the all glass walls enclosure with the metal screen top (it came with the 2 light bulbs (heat & UV), coconut husk, water bowls, vine, temp & humidity thermometer). The first day he was exploring the cage, he was on the bottom walking around on the coconut husk, he spent majority in the middle of his cage on his vine basking was alert/looking around. Everytime I passed by he would puff up and try to attack lol. Then on the second day I had put 7 crickets coated(yes, ghost white) with the calcium powder in his cage in the morning (as I assumed the fact he was on the floor the day prior was because he was hungry looking for food), when I went to check he had eaten 5 of them and then pooped (white with a solid medium brown poop). I didn’t take the crickets out and they stayed with him for the next day as I assumed he’d eat them when he was hungry. At the time I was just listening to what the employees told me, which was what I bought him and to feed him every other day. I filled his water dishes with water and at one point he had his feet in them. Yesterday I took him out from the top of the cage(he had climbed the vine to the very top for a couple of hours, which I found strange as he wasn’t in his UV light and I was worried he wasn’t getting his D3) it was also the first time he had done this. I was showing him to my mum when I noticed that he had his eyes closed the entire time. When I put him back in he walked straight up to the top and just sat there and eventually closed his eyes(it was around 7pm or so). He was very close to his UV light where his face was actually almost touching the metal right under the light. I left him there because I thought he might be getting the rays that way and would move when he had enough.... 1 hour later, he was still there. That’s when I moved the UV light away, because I was worried this could be causing his eyes to close and could damage him. Since then.. I’ve gotten worried so I started researching and found that closed eyes could be from dehydration. (His eyes aren’t sunken-in and other than closing his eyes sometimes or one at a time, he looks healthy). I kept reading and found that he needs a mister and most likely wouldn’t be drinking from bowls. So this morning I went straight to petsmart to get him a mister and a waterfall. Whatever to get him to drink water. I filled it with spring bottled water and I have it on a cycle every 4 hours. I also bought him a golden pathos in hopes to make his home more cozy and more options to climb and lick water from leaves(I washed the plant entirely and replanted it in brand new potting soil). I then fed him 8 crickets this time dusted with calcium. He was very eager to eat and I actually hand-fed him with tongs because I didn’t want to let the crickets loose and have them hide behind things (One did get loose and hid ): ). I still haven’t seen him drink water.. and after eating he went straight up the top of the cage on top of the thermometer out of the lights and closed his eyes and fell asleep. The water in the mister is room temp (I forgot to warm it) so I got worried he was cold as it did spray on him accidentally) and my apartment was 68F. I looked at the thermometer her was sitting on top of and it was 100F(humidity 60) but when I put my hand in there it doesn’t feel any warmer... so I’m confused also everything is wet and cold in there.. so I don’t understand. Anyway I got really worried so I took him down from there and he started frantically reaching around with his eyes shut trying to grab onto something he then fell off my hand about a foot, at that point he opened his eyes and was acting more normal I put him back in and he then was walking around on his pathos acting completely normal (looking around being alert) and just sat on his plant for about 30 minutes then walked around for another 30mins and then climbed on top of his mister and closed his eyes and now it looks like he’s asleep it was 8pm so I figured it’s time to go to sleep anyway so I turned off his lights and made sure he’s in darkness. I’ve been home almost all day and he’s been at the top of his cage with both his eyes closed looking like he’s sleeping.. so I’m not sure how long chameleons sleep for? I’ve been wondering if it’s because it might be hot in there? Even though I personally don’t feel a different in temp.. I also turned off his heating lamp for an hour and kept the door to his enclosure open in hopes to get it cooler but the thermometer only dropped to 95F in the span of 30 minutes. I’m thinking about taking him to the vet soon if his behavior persists and if you guys tell me something is wrong... I’m also waiting for him to poop to see if his urinate is yellow. Sorry for the long descriptive post, I’m just very worried and I know how fragile these guys are. Please let me know if you guys have dealt with behavior like this before and if his sleep during the day is normal. Any advice would help. Thank you!

(the photos below 1 &2 is from tonight 8pm after his feeding earlier and he’s sleeping on the mister.
Photos 3 & 4 is him on top of his pathos with his one eyes closed acting more normal and alert.)

 

[Syreptyon]

This is definitely not a good sign. Closing eyes during the day is a sure sign of illness. It also is not in your favor that you purchased him from PetSmart, which does a notoriously bad job of taking care of chameleons. I recommend you forget everything the employees told you there, too. They are not trained in chameleon husbandry and cannot give you qualified husbandry advice. It's a good thing you found the forums, though, and it sounds like you've already been doing a little research on your own.

Your best options are either (a) take him to the vet as soon as you can, or (b) see if you can return him to PetSmart. It is very likely he was already sick when they sold him to you. It is definitely not the heat causing this. Since chameleons are cold-blooded, heat gives them energy - it wouldn't make them fall asleep.

Also, ditch the waterfall. It will kill your chameleon in time. They do nothing but breed dangerous bacteria, even if you do a decent job at keeping up on its maintenance. The only sources of hydration you should offer should be in the form of mist, a dripper, and potentially overnight humidity

 

[Decadancin]

So first off, Welcome to the Forums!!! Glad you are here to learn about these amazing critters! Here is a great starting point in veiled chameleon care...

https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/veiled/

Your boy may need some time to adjust to his new surroundings and could actually be stressed. As mentioned above, the waterfall is not a recommended item to have in enclosures because they are generally very hard to keep clean. As feeders fall in or animals poop in them they will need to be taken out and washed constantly. Also, there is no need to have your feeders dusted heavily (should not look like ghost crickets ?) just a light dusting is sufficient. Take a look at the recommended supplement schedule from the caresheet linked above for the proper types and schedule.

The best way to tell if temps are accurate are by using a digital laser thermometer. You can find them at local Lowes or Home Depot stores and also online.

What size enclosure do you have him in? Could you post a picture of the entire setup?

 

[Astred]

Thank you for your advice! I’ll go get a digital thermometer ASAP I’ll take him to the vet since I don’t feel right about returning him. My dad who has taken care of chameleons says he’s normal as long as he eats and he’s scared and just getting used to his surroundings right now. Is it normal for the ribs to show? I always saw that as a bad sign in animals... so that’s my main concern at this point but he still eats.. so I know it’s not because he’s starving.

Here’s some pictures of the enclosure:
*I took out the waterfall which used to be on the left of the enclosure
*I also didn’t turn on the heat lamp as the thermometer said it’s 80F this morning and I know that’s a good temp so I just have the UV light on.
(as you can see he moved from the top of the mister to the otherside and at the top of the vine?) my guess (if there’s nothing wrong) is it offers him the most privacy..

 

[cyberlocc]

Thank you for your advice! I’ll go get a digital thermometer ASAP I’ll take him to the vet since I don’t feel right about returning him. My dad who has taken care of chameleons says he’s normal as long as he eats and he’s scared and just getting used to his surroundings right now. Is it normal for the ribs to show? I always saw that as a bad sign in animals... so that’s my main concern at this point but he still eats.. so I know it’s not because he’s starving.

Here’s some pictures of the enclosure:
*I took out the waterfall which used to be on the left of the enclosure
*I also didn’t turn on the heat lamp as the thermometer said it’s 80F this morning and I know that’s a good temp so I just have the UV light on.
(as you can see he moved from the top of the mister to the otherside and at the top of the vine?) my guess (if there’s nothing wrong) is it offers him the most privacy..
View attachment 260407View attachment 260408

That is (and this is no offense to you) a very silly design for a terrarium.
Exoterra Terrariums, and the likes, pull hot air out of the top, which is replaced by cool air in the front bottom, this provides air movement, via the chimney effect.

The makers take the fact, that other terrariums use a front venting system for airflow, and instead of putting it under the door, they put it on the roof.
Well this accomplishes, nothing. Nothing at all. The company that made this, has absouletely ZERO Clue what they are doing, and are just trying to mimic things they do not understand, obviously.


Anyway, all that said that terrarium is not going to work. Not only is it not big enough (18x18x24 is not big enough) its not ventilated at all, its no better than a fish tank. Its going to need to be replaced, hopefully you can take it back, as there is not much that terrarium is suited for, they ignored the entire point of a terrarium, moving things around to be different, when those things cannot be moved.

 

[Astred]

It makes a lot of sense actually because even without my heating lamp the enclosure is still pretty hot /: so makes sense that there is no air flow! I’ll be looking into an all screen wall terrarium. Thank you for your help!!

 

[Thehippie]

could you fill out the form posted below? looking at your set up theres a lot that needs changing! i also encourage you to check out the care sheet ive linked below!!!

form: https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/how-to-ask-for-help.66/

caresheet: https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/veiled/

 

[Astred]

I fill those sheets out ASAP!

I’m planning on getting him the 24x24x48 Zoo Med repribreeze LED deluxe open air aluminum screen habitat. Before I buy it I want to know if this is a good size? It’s pretty big.. they also have a medium enclosure 16x16x30. But I figured he would be happiest in a bigger enclosure..Would I have to hand feed him in that case? Since I’m not sure he would be able to find all the crickets..

 

[Redman]

The larger size is a better option, especially for a veil. In their natural environment, males can stake out a territory in the neighborhood of 20 square feet or more with favorite basking and hunting spots, so it's always better for them to provide the most space we can, and the adult size of each individual variety gives us some base minimums that we believe it is possible for them to live a healthy life in captivity with.

There is debate on the suitability of glass vs full screen enclosures, but your current one (as has been said here) is definitely too small and not set up for proper air movement. If it was large enough, you could possibly have fixed the issue with the addition of fans on the top to create air movement, which many in areas where screen cages are unavailable or unsafe due to climate issues have successfully used. I am personally of the opinion that we each have to do the best we possibly can for our chams and setup for their needs first, within the constraints of our homes, lifestyle, and budget. And you are definitely on your way to doing just that.

People have addressed your lighting issues, and please understand that the LED setup on the cage you mention is not going to meet your uvb needs. There is great info available here, and many discussions on proper light setup. Just let us know if you need further info on this.

As for hand feeding, you shouldn't HAVE to, as chameleons are fantastic hunters when healthy and given proper husbandry. Lots of people WANT to hand feed, as an acceptable form of interaction, but you should never have to do so unless there is a problem.

Glad to see that you are doing your homework and trying to do the best for your Cham. If more people did this in the beginning, we wouldn't see so many stories of first time owners that only find these forums when their chams are already well on their way to major health issues due to mostly ignorance of their needs. So, kudos to you for that. Keep it up!