Jacksons Chameleon Serious Skin Issues.

RBCam

RBCam

Member
Hello all I am back with Carmine. I had another thread here. https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/jackson-chameleon-has-brown-skin-tag-mass.148059/
This seems to be an evolution of the previous condition where he just had one spot that was a problem. Go there if you need past information. We have been to a couple vets and had pretty much gotten rid of his original issue with Neosporin and Lotroman lotion.
About the time his spot cleared up brown spots and areas kind of exploded all over his body.
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This is May 11th I believe. it started off with this strip on his back and is now taking over. Through out he has been eating until a couple days ago. I have been showering him about 2 to 3 times a week and letting him in the sun when possible.
Attached are photos from May 11 and today June 12 I have more photos I will upload in a response. I have a call into the vet but don't know how much they will be able to do. I have been to a couple and other than wanting to do a $400 to $800 biopsy. Lotrman and Neosporin was the best advice I had received. Any help is appreciated.
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Sorry some how the photos got put up twice. The the ones where he is light green are from May 11th the photos where he is darker are from today.
 
That looks like a fungal skin infection. They can be very difficult to treat unfortunately. A biopsy or scraping will probably be necessary to determine what medicine it can be be best treated with.
 
I filled out the info help sheet incase it helps at all.
Thanks,
Chameleon Info:

  • Your Chameleon - Jacksons Chameleon, Male, and about 1 year old. How long has it been in your care? -9 Months
  • Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? As little as possible to 3 or 4 times a week for more so because of skin treatments to swab medications.
  • Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? He eats about 3 -5 medium crickets a day sometimes Dubi Roaches and Meal worms What amount? 3-5 crickets I give less crickets on days I do roaches What is the schedule? I usually feed first thing in the morning after he is sprayed. How are you gut-loading your feeders? gut load with Kale, squash, carrots, in the past Month or more started Using Spirulina Power and a Concentrated Green Super foods powder as dry food for feeders as well as fresh. Still use Flukers “Cricket Quencher” for feeder waterWas using Flukers “High -Calcium” Cricket Diet before but stopped because I felt that may be part of the problem.,
  • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Dust feeders with Zoo Med Repti Calcium about every time, Dust with Zoo med Reptivite about every 2 weeks
  • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? Was Hand Watering, Now misking in cage auto timer How often and how long to you mist? When Hand watering I would spray good in the morning first thing. Then come back spray longer till he would start drinking. Now auto timer 1min 6:00am then 4 min 6:10 am then every 2 hours for 5 seconds till 4PM then 5 min and 6:00 pm 5 seconds. lights off at 7. Sometimes I take them Out and shower them in the shower on a fake tree for 15 to 30 min Do you see your chameleon drinking? Yes
  • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Poops are good firm and white urates has been tested for parasites.
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.


Cage Info:

  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? 16x16x30 reptibreese screen cage
  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? Using Zoo med deep dome light fixture, With Dayight Blue Repti bulb 60W switched to 40W for summer for heat and ZooMed Reptisun 5.1 UVB . Using What is your daily lighting schedule? 5:30 AM lights on 7:00 Pm Lights off
  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Basking spot I try to keep at 85. room temperature is between 72 and 78 during the day Lowest overnight temp? Lowest overnight temp would have to be between 65 and 72 How do you measure these temps? I have a thermometer in the basking area and a humidity and temp gage in the middle of the cage
  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? I try to keep it at 80% southern CA it is hard. So between 50% and 80% How are you creating and maintaining these levels? I spray to keep up the levels I have added plastic too 2 sides of the enclosure. to help keep humidity up. or really dry days or days when shedding I have a fogger I uses during the day. What do you use to measure humidity? I have a zoomed gage for humidity
  • Plants - Are you using live plants? No live plants If so, what kind? I have Manzneta branches, and combo of plastic and silk plants and vines
  • Placement - Where is your cage located?Family room Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? Maybe high traffic but its my wife and we both work so not very high traffic only 2 of us. At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?’ The top of the cage is about 5’
  • Location - Where are you geographically located? Southern California


Current Problem - Carmine has been to the vet 4 times I even switched to a new vet. The first vet did not He had the spot on his neck that was the original concern. The vet had me using lotramen but about the time I got it looking better he developed other skin issue. With Brown spots on his back and brown areas in the creases of his legs. I was able to shower him and remove some of them and it was better but now a couple weeks after that he is lethargic and has just started not eating. I also have a female I keep in the exact same way lately she is just gorgeous bright skin, fat and active.
 
I agree with Lathis, you need a skin scraping/biopsy to determine what it exactly is. It does look fungal and I think more aggressive treatment is warranted at this point since the lotramin was not effective.
 
It shouldn't be at 80% all the time, there should be some spikes, I let my jackson's humidity dip down to 65% and then spike up to 80-85%. Fungal infections spread more in humid moist environments with humans. I assume it is quite similar with chameleons. I still think you should get the biopsy done. But you may be able to stop it from spreading so much with allowing more spikes and less constant humidity.
 
Fungal is the first thing that came to mind too. Have you looked into using Silvedene (Silver Sulfadiazine) cream? It's commonly used on turtles with skin fungal infections. http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Care/medshell.htm

I can attest that it works, but you have to be consistant with it.

Also, you need to understand the nature of fungus. It loves heat and moisture, so showering his skin with water is not helping. I know Jacksons love water, but in this case i'd say the dryer you keep his skin the better. Try giving him water directly into his mouth using a dropper.

Obviously a vet visit is what's best, but i understand that price can be an issue. I see that Lotramin didn't work, but while you look for the Silvedene cream, you can try Lamasil or some other topical anti-fungus cream. Some fungus' respond to some creams, and are non- responsive to others, so just because Lotramin didn't work doesn't mean another fungus cream won't either.
 
I'd honestly be worried that since it started in one localized spot, healed, then exploded all over, that whatever it is has gone systemic: meaning it's all throughout him now, not just localized. If it is systemic, it's unlikely that a cream will entirely resolve the problem. I'd think a round of oral meds might be called for- but again, to determine what kind of meds he would need, you needs to do a skin scraping/biopsy first. Trying to resolve such a severe problem via medical trial-and-error is not a good idea! It wastes
 
Thanks @MissLissa agreed I don't think I have much choice at this point the next step is crucial because I don't think he is going to make it much longer if I don't get him the right meds. I am not opposed to scraping or biopsy I just don't think vets I have been too have helped that much. First one wanted to do major surgery on something I felt was in need of a skin scraping. The other wanted to be too cautions and use medications that were't strong enough then wanted me to stop them too soon because he was worried about absorption in the skin and his kidneys. Now it is worse than ever the next visit has to have a skin scraping /biopsy or I think it is just going to be a waste. Unfortunately at some point with all animals and health car you have to ask at what point does the expense exceed the monetary and emotional value of said animal. $400 I would spend it on my Chameleon no problem. it is just when they start talking about $800 the rational part of my brain kicks in and says this is $130 Petco lizard maybe you should not spend $800 on it. My dogs I spend $800 and more all the time at the vet no problem but if even with the dogs if some one were to say you need a $15,000 + surgery you might have to evaluate it.
So I am willing to put in the time and the work and don't think it is unreasonable to have a vet treat a $130 lizard for under $400 or so. I would spend more if I knew for a fact it would help but so far I have not had good luck or results with the 2 vets I tried. Sorry to vent just very frustrating trying to find a vet to work with that will not gouge you.
 
RBCam said:
Sorry to vent just very frustrating trying to find a vet to work with that will not gouge you.
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I can understand how it feels like that, but in my decade working for exotic clinics I can honestly say I have never met a vet out to gouge clients. If they wanted to do that, they would have become private human practitioners and moved to the US! Skin scrapings are often less expensive, since they don't generally require an anesthetic, but they are also a less useful diagnostic tool than a biopsy in some cases: you may want to speak to your vet about that. Biopsies require some kind of sedation and/or anesthetic, and that is where your high cost is probably coming from. Once you need to put a cham under the costs skyrocket, as the time, monitoring, staffing and equipment required are more extensive. The testing lab also has fees that need to be covered, to pay for the lab staff and veterinary specialists to identify what's going on in the sample.

Without testing, anything you try is going to be a shot in the dark. However, if the choices are "no treatment" and "random treatment", please let your vet know so they can make their best-guess. Also keep in mind, they may refuse to prescribe treatment without the proper testing. No vet I worked with would, but some vets have a stricter personal code. At this stage, if you and your team decide on a "best guess" treatment, please understand that it may not be effective, and you may spend the money and time and effort and still not have a healthy chameleon. If you have a budget, most clinics are willing to work with you within those limits, as long as they are aware of what they are. They may not be able to do a biopsy with what you are able to spend, but knowing what they have to work with will help them make their best recommendations to you.

With that in mind, if you don't feel that those are options, humane euthanasia is always a choice. Letting this progress much further will increase his discomfort and stress, and you may want to consider quality of life at some point, especially if it starts affecting his movements and feeding habits.
 
Just booked new appointment with another vet. Who comes highly recommended. Unfortunately I can not get in to see him till Monday but not happy with the results from the other 2 so I think this is his best shot. Thanks for the input I think you are right on point about it being in his entire system. I am not a posed to spending money just need to get the right kind of help.
Thanks for the advice @MissLissa Any tips on keeping him going till Monday are always helpful.
Thanks!
 
RBCam said:
Just booked new appointment with another vet. Who comes highly recommended. Unfortunately I can not get in to see him till Monday but not happy with the results from the other 2 so I think this is his best shot. Thanks for the input I think you are right on point about it being in his entire system. I am not a posed to spending money just need to get the right kind of help.
Thanks for the advice @MissLissa Any tips on keeping him going till Monday are always helpful.
Thanks!
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I hope you get the answers you need from this new vet. I understand your reluctance to spend a lot of money on him. There is nothing wrong with that philosophy as long as you don't let him suffer. I have some animals in my house that I'll go to great lengths and expense with, others I make comfortable and euthanize when the animal is failing or starting to suffer. Their initial cost has nothing to do with how much money I spend on an animal. If he were mine, I would want a positive diagnosis because I would worry about it being contagious and would want to protect the rest of my collection.
 
I also have animals that I have decided I will not spend any more money on, and that if anything happens to them it's paliative care at best. We all have limits to what we can bear.

Keeping him quiet and well-hydrated won't hurt. I've never dealt with a fungal infection in a Jackson's before, or I'd be bale to give you more specific help. Otherwise, I care for one skink species in particular that is basically a fungus nightmare, and keeping the affected areas dry helps- if this is indeed fungal in nature. Fungus loves warm, wet conditions. Keeping him on the lower-end on his safe humidity levels is likely a good idea, direct misting on his skin is probably not a good idea, but still having a good source of drinking water is very important. It is not easy balancing these! You could offer him more soft-bodied worms for now, if he will eat them- easy to digest, good nutrition, plenty of hydration. Sunshine is a good natural anti-microbial, and while it won't cure the problem it may help to keep it contained a bit (maybe, hopefully). If you can keep the stress down, and keep him hydrated, hopefully he will do okay until Monday. His turrets still look pretty good, and he doesn't look horribly emaciated to me, which are good signs at least.

Since we don't know what this is, please make sure you are following proper quarantine and hand-washing routines, like jajeanpierre said! You don't want to spread it to other chams, reptiles, pets, or even yourself or your family. Following quarantine never hurts, and if this is something nasty you may prevent it from spreading around.
 
Carlton said:
Poor little guy! I hope you are using very good quarantine procedures if you have other animals.
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Thanks for reminding me about quarantine procedures everyone. I am an avid hand washer anyway. :D But take extra care to wash in-between each animal and feeders I deal with anyway. He is next to my female in the cage but they are separated by solid coraplast so they don't see each other so that is a barrier. I have not bread him to my female because of his condition and fear she may catch something. I make sure and wash my hands and throw away all all cue-tips after applying medicine and remove all dead skin after his showers outside. I bleach the shower after I am done showering him. Then put him in the sun to try and naturally kill the fungus. I make sure not to use the same cleaning cloths when I wipe up poop in each cage. I use separate cleaning water and supplies on each cage when I clean it. If it is airborne I am screwed anyway. I have to be more diligent about keeping the dogs out of the rinse water. Didn't really think about it being zoonotic but something to consider. Especially in bulldog wrinkles :eek:
I was able to get him to eat a roach today so that is an accomplishment. It took lots of antagonizing and tempting but got at least one down him and he drank a little from the hand sprayer. This new vet is supposed to be"the guy" for Chameleons in LA so at least hope to get answers. One question I am asking for sure is "will we be able to save him?" If not I am prepared to have him euthanized that day. The other vet had said that it is amazing I kept a Petco Chameleon alive this long. But I think he may still have some fight left in him. Carmine is really cool he is a great Chameleon and has a great personality when he is feeling good but as a few of you have said it is not right to let him suffer. I could not agree more and will not let that happen if we do not have a solid working treatment plan. He as been a great joy and has taught me a lot. Thanks for all of your help and advice everyone. I will keep you updated.
 
I took Carmine to the new vet today over the weekend he went more down hill as far as being week and listless. He has not eaten since Friday when I got him to eat a roach. I was pretty convinced he was going to have to be put down. But the vet said he didn't think it was time to give up. He wants to continue lotraman and Neosporin as well as daily exfoliation and cleaning with betadine, he gave me 2 oral medications ltraconazole 10mg/ml and enrofloxacn suspension 50mg/ml. To get him eating again he had me pick up Flukers Repta+Boost. He wants to see what happens and possibly do a biopsy if we get him a little better first.
He was very weak when I got home and I think was even having trouble seeing. I was going to wait till the morning to try and feed him the Repta+Boost but he looked so bad I decided to give him a little. I am glad I did after a few miniutes he seemed to get some energy and was trying to clean his eyes and get his bearings a litte better. If I can get him eating on his own asap I think he will have a good shot.
I will let you know how it goes over the next couple days.
Thanks
Ross
 
I don't think Carmine has much longer if he makes it through tonight I will be surprised. He has only been on the meds 3 days The vet said that his skin may just be a symptom of something bigger internally. He lost the ability to hold on to a branch a few hours ago and is now at the bottom of the cage. I am just keeping him as comfortable as possible.
 
RBCam said:
I don't think Carmine has much longer if he makes it through tonight I will be surprised. He has only been on the meds 3 days The vet said that his skin may just be a symptom of something bigger internally. He lost the ability to hold on to a branch a few hours ago and is now at the bottom of the cage. I am just keeping him as comfortable as possible.
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I'm sorry to hear that :( Keeping him comfortable is probably all you can do right now. It's so heartbreaking to not be able to do more.
 
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